The Forsaken One
Explorer
Actually me and my D&D group decided that the Arrow itself might have been something of artifact status, minor or major.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
A couple of comments.
Kid Charlemagne has it right - the orcs did come after the party, and very quickly too.
Unless they climbed those dwarven light shafts (in the film version, they probably could!) they must have put up a temporary bridge pretty fast.
Gollum got to the party even before the orcs, if I remember rightly.
He didn't run right up to them, of course, but he got close enough that Frodo heard him.
(Actually, he almost did run right up to them, in that tree, but that is beside the point.
)
- - -
What Celeborn said to the Fellowship made me VERY angry when I first read it, back in 1976, and it still angers me now.
Most CERTAINLY that statement shows that Celeborn, aside from not being one of the Wise, is an idiot.
He says, to paraphrase: Had I known the dwarves had reawakened this evil in Moria, I would not have allowed you to pass our Northern Borders.
Ok, scratch Gandalf's plans (which obviously included a stay in Lothlorien.)
Scratch Elrond's plans too, for he intended them the chance to stay in Moria.
Scratch Aragorn's plans, for HE intended this, I believe, the moment they determined to go through Moria.
Oh, and scratch Middle Earth while you're at it.
For if the party isn't allowed into Lothlorien, they are pinned against it as the orcs swarm across Dimril Dale.
Of course, if the party is thus pinned, they have to fight or flee (and flee, to where, exactly?)
If they fight, the orcs KILL them, and then the Ring ... oh my ... the Ring falls into the hands of the orcs, and of course Sauron retakes what is his, and ... then Sauron burns Lothlorien to the ground, and kills every elf in it, including Celeborn.
Perhaps Celeborn meant only Gimli?
YOU (Gimli) would not have been allowed to pass our Northern Borders.
How nice!
Nothing like leaving Gimli to die as the orcs overrun Dimril Dale, catch him, and do what orcs do best.
Or perhaps they keep him a prisoner on the northern borders, in the trees?
This is a pleasant way to treat an honored friend of: Elrond, Gandalf, Thranduil, Dain, and Brand.
This is a good way of furthering pleasant relationships between the nations ... and not starting another war between elves and dwarves. NOT.
Furthermore, was the Fellowship going to leave Gimli behind?
Perhaps if he had only been imprisoned, yes.
And perhaps not.
Certainly, it would have made a serious difference in how Frodo reacted to Galadriel, later on, and in that change to his reaction would have come a change to the fate of all of Middle Earth, for the meeting of Frodo and Galadriel was CRUCIAL to the story.
- - -
Remember that Celeborn does not have the excuse of Doriath (neither does Thranduil, but nevermind that.)
Durin's folk were never involved in that fiasco, and they did what they could to talk the dwarves of Nogrod out of it.
Furthermore, that was 6,000 years ago, and - although I think everyone has the right to carry on a vendetta - don't you think carrying on a vendetta for 6,000 years is a bit much?
- - -
When the dwarves of Khazad-Dum awakened the balrog, it made War against them.
Apparently, the dwarves were better armed and armored then, and certainly were in great number, for they fought back, and it took the balrog several months and 2 dwarven kings before it drove the dwarves from Khazad-Dum (which was immediately renamed Moria, the Black Pit.)
The news reached Lothlorien quickly.
I do not know exactly who brought the news, be it a dwarf, man, eagle, or elf (or even one of the hobbits still living by the River), but I do know the consequences.
Moria's East Gate is VERY close to Northern Lothlorien, and as the balrog runs it was about 5 minutes away (if you doubt this, remember that balrogs took only a couple of hours, at the most, to run all the way from Angband to the coast, to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant.)
Queen Nimrodel of Lothlorien, terrified that the balrog would make that 5 minute journey, fled, along with a great part of the people of the Golden Wood.
King Amroth arranged to meet her in Gondor, and they both ended up dead or lost somewhere at Sea.
Lothlorien would have been deserted, but Galadriel stepped in, with her Noldorian might, and the remaining elves stayed, and fortified their homeland.
Northern Lothlorien remained deserted, however, from that point on.
Now yes, that would be a reason for Celeborn to be angry.
But not so good a reason as to dis Gimli like he did.
Galadriel, acting as the Noldor that she was, crossed her own husband, and welcomed Gimli, and in so doing turned a gaping, bleeding wound, into healing and friendship (and later, into love.)
I guess that is why they call the Noldor the High Elves.
Kid Charlemagne has it right - the orcs did come after the party, and very quickly too.
Unless they climbed those dwarven light shafts (in the film version, they probably could!) they must have put up a temporary bridge pretty fast.
Gollum got to the party even before the orcs, if I remember rightly.
He didn't run right up to them, of course, but he got close enough that Frodo heard him.
(Actually, he almost did run right up to them, in that tree, but that is beside the point.
)- - -
What Celeborn said to the Fellowship made me VERY angry when I first read it, back in 1976, and it still angers me now.
Most CERTAINLY that statement shows that Celeborn, aside from not being one of the Wise, is an idiot.
He says, to paraphrase: Had I known the dwarves had reawakened this evil in Moria, I would not have allowed you to pass our Northern Borders.
Ok, scratch Gandalf's plans (which obviously included a stay in Lothlorien.)
Scratch Elrond's plans too, for he intended them the chance to stay in Moria.
Scratch Aragorn's plans, for HE intended this, I believe, the moment they determined to go through Moria.
Oh, and scratch Middle Earth while you're at it.
For if the party isn't allowed into Lothlorien, they are pinned against it as the orcs swarm across Dimril Dale.
Of course, if the party is thus pinned, they have to fight or flee (and flee, to where, exactly?)
If they fight, the orcs KILL them, and then the Ring ... oh my ... the Ring falls into the hands of the orcs, and of course Sauron retakes what is his, and ... then Sauron burns Lothlorien to the ground, and kills every elf in it, including Celeborn.
Perhaps Celeborn meant only Gimli?
YOU (Gimli) would not have been allowed to pass our Northern Borders.
How nice!
Nothing like leaving Gimli to die as the orcs overrun Dimril Dale, catch him, and do what orcs do best.
Or perhaps they keep him a prisoner on the northern borders, in the trees?
This is a pleasant way to treat an honored friend of: Elrond, Gandalf, Thranduil, Dain, and Brand.
This is a good way of furthering pleasant relationships between the nations ... and not starting another war between elves and dwarves. NOT.
Furthermore, was the Fellowship going to leave Gimli behind?
Perhaps if he had only been imprisoned, yes.
And perhaps not.
Certainly, it would have made a serious difference in how Frodo reacted to Galadriel, later on, and in that change to his reaction would have come a change to the fate of all of Middle Earth, for the meeting of Frodo and Galadriel was CRUCIAL to the story.
- - -
Remember that Celeborn does not have the excuse of Doriath (neither does Thranduil, but nevermind that.)
Durin's folk were never involved in that fiasco, and they did what they could to talk the dwarves of Nogrod out of it.
Furthermore, that was 6,000 years ago, and - although I think everyone has the right to carry on a vendetta - don't you think carrying on a vendetta for 6,000 years is a bit much?
- - -
When the dwarves of Khazad-Dum awakened the balrog, it made War against them.
Apparently, the dwarves were better armed and armored then, and certainly were in great number, for they fought back, and it took the balrog several months and 2 dwarven kings before it drove the dwarves from Khazad-Dum (which was immediately renamed Moria, the Black Pit.)
The news reached Lothlorien quickly.
I do not know exactly who brought the news, be it a dwarf, man, eagle, or elf (or even one of the hobbits still living by the River), but I do know the consequences.
Moria's East Gate is VERY close to Northern Lothlorien, and as the balrog runs it was about 5 minutes away (if you doubt this, remember that balrogs took only a couple of hours, at the most, to run all the way from Angband to the coast, to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant.)
Queen Nimrodel of Lothlorien, terrified that the balrog would make that 5 minute journey, fled, along with a great part of the people of the Golden Wood.
King Amroth arranged to meet her in Gondor, and they both ended up dead or lost somewhere at Sea.
Lothlorien would have been deserted, but Galadriel stepped in, with her Noldorian might, and the remaining elves stayed, and fortified their homeland.
Northern Lothlorien remained deserted, however, from that point on.
Now yes, that would be a reason for Celeborn to be angry.
But not so good a reason as to dis Gimli like he did.
Galadriel, acting as the Noldor that she was, crossed her own husband, and welcomed Gimli, and in so doing turned a gaping, bleeding wound, into healing and friendship (and later, into love.)
I guess that is why they call the Noldor the High Elves.
Edena_of_Neith said:
So, let's see.
Dwarves originally woke the thing up through their greed, and you have a number of other reasons to hold grudges against dwarves.
At this time, that which you love most in the world, everything you think of as right and good and beautiful, is reduced to one little pocket of what you'd call civilization. That beast can reduce that pocket to cinders, and is five minutes away, and just woken up again. In addition, the beast has claimed the life of one of the few people in the world you can legitimately see as a respected equal.
And what do you know - one of those darned dwarves was involved again, and he comes knocking on your door, asking for succor from the very same beast - posssibly giving it a reason to come to Lothlorien!
Nah, he's got no reason to be cheesed off. No reason at all.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Rebuttal posted by Umbran
So, let's see.
Dwarves originally woke the thing up through their greed, and you have a number of other reasons to hold grudges against dwarves.
At this time, that which you love most in the world, everything you think of as right and good and beautiful, is reduced to one little pocket of what you'd call civilization. That beast can reduce that pocket to cinders, and is five minutes away, and just woken up again. In addition, the beast has claimed the life of one of the few people in the world you can legitimately see as a respected equal.
And what do you know - one of those darned dwarves was involved again, and he comes knocking on your door, asking for succor from the very same beast - posssibly giving it a reason to come to Lothlorien!
Nah, he's got no reason to be cheesed off. No reason at all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Comments by Edena_of_Neith
Actually, that's a very good rebuttal, and the point is well taken.
I thought, up until recently, that Celeborn was stating he would have denied entrance to the entire party ... now I think, he was referring specifically to Gimli, and on that assumption I will make my comments.
Everyone, including Gandalf, if I remember correctly, refers to the dwarven greed, for they dug too deeply and too deep, and far under Caradhras they awoke the balrog.
Well, there is no doubt that the dwarves of Khazad-Dum were greedy - most dwarves in Middle Earth are, and the 7 Rings did not help matters.
I could add something further to that greed: arrogance.
Khazad-Dum survived the assault of Sauron that destroyed Eriador in the Second Age.
It survived the Dark Years.
It outlasted Sauron himself, or so the dwarves thought, after the Last Alliance.
When Rivendell was besieged by Angmar and Rhudaur, the dwarves were safe in their underground home.
When Cardolan and Arthedain were invaded in 1409 by Angmar and Rhudaur, and Eriador went up in flames, Khazad-Dum was spared.
When Arthedain finally fell, and Angmar was wiped out, Khazad-Dum endured.
The dwarves must have thought themselves invincible.
They must have thought anything possible, and any invader repulsable.
They never considered that the danger might lay right under their homes, until they woke it up.
So yeah, I will add arrogance to greed, and make Celeborn's case stronger.
- - -
I will further strengthen Umbran's rebuttal, and make a better case for Celeborn's anger.
Nimrodel was GREATLY beloved by the people of what was then called Laurelindorian, and King Amroth was very popular.
In peace and beauty Nimrodel dwelt in a great Talan high in the trees of northern Laurelindorian, and with her dwelt a great part of the people of that land, for the River Nimrodel was a source of joy to them all (remember that elves, in Tolkien's world, hear the echoe of the Music of Creation in water.)
When news of the balrog came, there was panic and wholesale flight, and all of northern Laurelindorian was permanently abandoned.
Amroth and Nimrodel must have advocated that everyone leave - it is a wonder that they all did not go.
Amroth and Nimrodel did go, and both died, and when this news came back to Laurelindorian, the elves were so stricken they weep about it today, a thousand years later.
And yes, Laurelindorian became an isolated pocket of what the elves would call Civilization, in a world of enemies.
As the power of Gondor waned, it's protection over the Vales of Anduin vanished.
Wave after wave of peoples from the east assailed the friendly folk of Anduin, until few remained, and the Eothed (ancestors of the Rohirrim) fled north past the Carrock to get away from the war and the terror.
Dul Guldur arose in the east, and Greenwood was poisoned into Mirkwood, while in the west orcs increased in the Misty Mountains and attacked the dwarves.
Finally, Gondor's presense southward was utterly gone, and savage men held all the lands east of Anduin.
Then the dwarves awoke the balrog, and fled through Dimril Dale, and now all the lands around Laurelindorian were waste, or filled with enemies.
Only the journey of Eorl (which Galadriel aided) and his men, brought a measure of peace - to Laurelindorian's south - but the Rohirrim were ever fearful of the elves, and had no converse with them of any sort. Later, they came to fear them very greatly.
So yes indeed, here is a land of beauty and peace, even without Narya - but with Narya and Galadriel to wield that Ring, Laurelindorian becomes a piece of the Golden Past, an echo of the beauty and light of the Undying Lands of the West.
And yes, the balrog was five minutes away from the northern border of Laurelindorian (if that long!), and yes, it had the power to reduce Laurelindorian to ashes.
But now, I wish to make some points that do not support Umbran's rebuttal of my post:
Galadriel stepped in, and she was the equal to the balrog: please remember that just because you do not see Galadriel wearing armor, or carrying a sword and bow, or carrying a staff, means nothing concerning her capacity to defend Laurelindorian from that balrog.
What matters is Galadriel's Stature.
Just how great is Galadriel's Stature?
I am not sure.
However, it is great enough that Galadriel can contest with Sauron himself (for he often desired to view her realm, and she turned his Eye away), and win - even if it was a defensive action only and aided by Narya.
It is the Stature of the last surviving child of Finarfin to walk Middle Earth, 10,000 years of age.
Galadriel's Stature is shown eloquently by Peter Jackson when she manifests it for Frodo, perhaps half involuntarily - her response triggered by Frodo's offer of the One Ring.
I believe Galadriel WAS the reason the balrog did not come out right then and there, and raze Laurelindorian to the ground - certainly, it hated elves, and it had reason to want revenge against all elves, and it had a VERY bad disposition in general, to understate matters.
I think the balrog was intimidated by Galadriel, and decided not to risk battle with her.
Certainly, the dwarven army that won the Battle of Dimril Dale (the Dwarven-Orc Wars in which half the dwarves were killed, and Dain slew Azog) did not intimidate the balrog - it looked right at Dain as he peeked into East Gate, and it laughed in his face!
This is not a counter-rebuttal to Umbran - Umbran could comment that it supports his case further.
Merely commentary on the situation.
However ...
Now I have some counter-rebuttals for Umbran.
First of all, Gimli came seeking succor, but from orcs, not the balrog. That, however, is a very minor point.
Celeborn knew of the Fellowship and their mission.
Thus, he knew that the fate of Middle Earth, was in the hands of that Fellowship and Frodo.
The fate of HIS people, were in the hands of that Fellowship and Frodo.
Why?
The people of Lothlorien were trapped.
They could not go east, for Sauron held all those lands.
They could not go west (or, effectively, north,) for the Misty Mountains blocked the way, and orcs held those heights.
They could not go south and west, for Saruman blocked the way.
They could go straight south, and hope Gondor could shield them until they could fly over the Sea.
However, the total evacuation of Lothlorien would have taken time.
Time, is not something they had.
Even had they left - all of them - right after Frodo and the Fellowship, there is some question as to whether they could have gotten past Minas Tirith to the safety of Lebinnin before the Morgul Host came forth.
And, of course, the Haradrim were assailing the coasts in force, so the evacuation would have been made that much harder.
But that is not the real point either.
- - -
The POINT is, if Sauron regained the One Ring, it was over for Lothlorien, Galadriel or no Galadriel.
No chance to flee.
No hope of victory in combat.
No hope, to defend their land from the coming assault.
Certainly, no hope of mercy or quarter from Sauron.
Therefore, it was INCUMBENT upon Celeborn to aid the Fellowship, anyway he could.
ALL other considerations, were secondary.
Galadriel, understood this very well, and in everything she said and did, she worked to aid the Fellowship, aid Frodo, strengthen Frodo, and give the best council she could to Frodo and Fellowship.
However, Celeborn did NOT understand.
He allowed his border guard to waylay the Fellowship in an unfriendly matter, and to harass Gimli as a potential enemy.
He created a situation where - if Aragorn had not interfered - Gimli might have been KILLED. (Look at the pertinent part of the book, where Gimli became so infuriated he put hand to axe, and tell me I'm wrong!)
IF Gimli had been killed, that would have GREATLY harmed the effort to destroy the One Ring, for it would have brought grief, anger, and hostility to everyone in the Fellowship, and it would have justified with mockery the words of Boromir prior to their arrival in Lothlorien (I would rather walk through a path of spears, said he.)
EVERYONE in the Fellowship would have looked upon the elves with eyes clouded by the memory of Gimli's death - even Legolas, Aragorn, and Frodo would have had their perceptions altered.
Boromir would have looked upon the elves with hatred.
Pippin, Merry, and Sam would have looked upon them with fear and anger.
Legolas, Aragorn, and Frodo would have been traumatized, and at a loss for words.
It is likely Frodo would have closed his mind to the words of Galadriel.
It is likely he would not have looked into the Mirror.
It is possible no Gifts would have been given, and more likely yet that many in the Fellowship would not have desired Gifts.
Galadriel could not have undone the damage.
Murder, is not something you can just undo.
So, Frodo leaves Lothlorien WITHOUT the Phial of Galadriel - guess what happens at Cirith Ungol?
Frodo, leaves confused and hurt, less able than ever before to make the crucial decision to go alone to Mordor - which he must make to have any real chance to succeed.
Boromir, infuriated, is far less willing to work with Aragorn (the one who led them to Lothlorien) and he may well have support from the hobbits, and there is strife and anger within the Fellowship.
Legolas and Boromir do not get along at ALL, and Legolas is distracted from doing his job, because he must carry on a fight with Boromir.
But that's not the worst of it.
The WORST of it is that the One Ring is GREATLY empowered to corrupt EVERYONE in the Fellowship, including Sam and Frodo.
Callous acts (such as saying: it was stupid Gimli's fault he got killed, and we'll just let bygones be bygones - good riddance to the idiot!) strengthen the One Ring.
Allowing acts of murder to pass before your eyes, and doing nothing to bring about justice - especially when the deceased was your FRIEND, and the deceased fought to SAVE YOUR LIFE, darkens your mind and soul. And those who are darkened of mind and soul, are more vulnerable to the temptation of the One Ring.
Simply the EXPERIENCE of watching Gimli be shot down, and the trauma and horror of it - the sadness and subsequent grief - all of these things strengthen the power of the One Ring to corrupt the bearer.
So, now the One Ring has a crucial foothold on everyone in the Fellowship.
Aragorn, who withstood the Ring in the book, might not have been able to do so in this situation.
Boromir, would have collapsed much faster, if not immediately.
Legolas, with his justifying of the acts of the elves, would have brought hatred and anger against him from many in the Fellowship, and the Ring's pull on him would have been enhanced.
Merry and Pippin would have gone from revering elves to being terrified of them, and then being repulsed by them ... their altruism would have failed, and with that would have gone much of their strength to resist the One Ring.
Frodo would have seen the brutal murder of his friend by those he trusted.
He would have seen the Fellowship turn and look the other way, afterwards.
Grief and sorrow would have given way to futile anger, then cynicism, and his friendship with Aragorn and Legolas would have collapsed.
Certainly, he would have been more susceptible to the words of Boromir afterwards.
His heart darkened by the murder of Gimli, Frodo would have been crucially weakened, his Stature diminished (and diminished much further because he allowed that murder to pass, and did not seek justice for it, choosing expediency instead), and his capacity to resist the One Ring would have greatly lessened.
Thus, the mission to destroy the Ring would have failed.
Sauron would have taken back what was his.
Celeborn's people would have been massacred (the lucky ones) and sent to enjoy the gloom of the Halls of Mandos (the unlucky ones would have been taken alive as thralls of Sauron.)
Remember, this is TOLKIEN we are talking about, not D&D.
Expediency, has MUCH LESS of a place in Tolkien (killing Gollum would have been expedient.)
Mercy, charity, kindness, were very big matters in Middle Earth.
But what did Celeborn do?
He had to give way to anger and fear.
Anger and fear, SAURON'S weapons!
Anger and fear, when the FATE OF MIDDLE EARTH came running into his land, in the form of Frodo and his Fellowship.
Anger and fear, that almost led to the total destruction of Middle Earth and the massacre of ALL the elves who lived therein.
There was NO place for anger and fear in Celeborn's heart.
Anger and fear were beneath him, as a noble elf from the great Realm of Doriath, and Lord of Lothlorien.
It was his job and duty to put aside the weapons of the Enemy, and embrace those concepts that ultimately saved everyone - mercy, charity, kindness, forgiveness, and good deeds.
Fortunately for Celeborn, Galadriel was there to correct him.
It IS fortunate for Celeborn.
Wasn't the destruction of Doriath ENOUGH for Celeborn, or did he truly wish to see his people massacred a second time?
That is my counter-rebuttal to Umbran.
Heh. Note that you can sense the anger in my words.
But that anger, is NOT directed at Umbran!!
That anger, is directed at that idiot Celeborn.
Edena_of_Neith
So, let's see.
Dwarves originally woke the thing up through their greed, and you have a number of other reasons to hold grudges against dwarves.
At this time, that which you love most in the world, everything you think of as right and good and beautiful, is reduced to one little pocket of what you'd call civilization. That beast can reduce that pocket to cinders, and is five minutes away, and just woken up again. In addition, the beast has claimed the life of one of the few people in the world you can legitimately see as a respected equal.
And what do you know - one of those darned dwarves was involved again, and he comes knocking on your door, asking for succor from the very same beast - posssibly giving it a reason to come to Lothlorien!
Nah, he's got no reason to be cheesed off. No reason at all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Comments by Edena_of_Neith
Actually, that's a very good rebuttal, and the point is well taken.
I thought, up until recently, that Celeborn was stating he would have denied entrance to the entire party ... now I think, he was referring specifically to Gimli, and on that assumption I will make my comments.
Everyone, including Gandalf, if I remember correctly, refers to the dwarven greed, for they dug too deeply and too deep, and far under Caradhras they awoke the balrog.
Well, there is no doubt that the dwarves of Khazad-Dum were greedy - most dwarves in Middle Earth are, and the 7 Rings did not help matters.
I could add something further to that greed: arrogance.
Khazad-Dum survived the assault of Sauron that destroyed Eriador in the Second Age.
It survived the Dark Years.
It outlasted Sauron himself, or so the dwarves thought, after the Last Alliance.
When Rivendell was besieged by Angmar and Rhudaur, the dwarves were safe in their underground home.
When Cardolan and Arthedain were invaded in 1409 by Angmar and Rhudaur, and Eriador went up in flames, Khazad-Dum was spared.
When Arthedain finally fell, and Angmar was wiped out, Khazad-Dum endured.
The dwarves must have thought themselves invincible.
They must have thought anything possible, and any invader repulsable.
They never considered that the danger might lay right under their homes, until they woke it up.
So yeah, I will add arrogance to greed, and make Celeborn's case stronger.
- - -
I will further strengthen Umbran's rebuttal, and make a better case for Celeborn's anger.
Nimrodel was GREATLY beloved by the people of what was then called Laurelindorian, and King Amroth was very popular.
In peace and beauty Nimrodel dwelt in a great Talan high in the trees of northern Laurelindorian, and with her dwelt a great part of the people of that land, for the River Nimrodel was a source of joy to them all (remember that elves, in Tolkien's world, hear the echoe of the Music of Creation in water.)
When news of the balrog came, there was panic and wholesale flight, and all of northern Laurelindorian was permanently abandoned.
Amroth and Nimrodel must have advocated that everyone leave - it is a wonder that they all did not go.
Amroth and Nimrodel did go, and both died, and when this news came back to Laurelindorian, the elves were so stricken they weep about it today, a thousand years later.
And yes, Laurelindorian became an isolated pocket of what the elves would call Civilization, in a world of enemies.
As the power of Gondor waned, it's protection over the Vales of Anduin vanished.
Wave after wave of peoples from the east assailed the friendly folk of Anduin, until few remained, and the Eothed (ancestors of the Rohirrim) fled north past the Carrock to get away from the war and the terror.
Dul Guldur arose in the east, and Greenwood was poisoned into Mirkwood, while in the west orcs increased in the Misty Mountains and attacked the dwarves.
Finally, Gondor's presense southward was utterly gone, and savage men held all the lands east of Anduin.
Then the dwarves awoke the balrog, and fled through Dimril Dale, and now all the lands around Laurelindorian were waste, or filled with enemies.
Only the journey of Eorl (which Galadriel aided) and his men, brought a measure of peace - to Laurelindorian's south - but the Rohirrim were ever fearful of the elves, and had no converse with them of any sort. Later, they came to fear them very greatly.
So yes indeed, here is a land of beauty and peace, even without Narya - but with Narya and Galadriel to wield that Ring, Laurelindorian becomes a piece of the Golden Past, an echo of the beauty and light of the Undying Lands of the West.
And yes, the balrog was five minutes away from the northern border of Laurelindorian (if that long!), and yes, it had the power to reduce Laurelindorian to ashes.
But now, I wish to make some points that do not support Umbran's rebuttal of my post:
Galadriel stepped in, and she was the equal to the balrog: please remember that just because you do not see Galadriel wearing armor, or carrying a sword and bow, or carrying a staff, means nothing concerning her capacity to defend Laurelindorian from that balrog.
What matters is Galadriel's Stature.
Just how great is Galadriel's Stature?
I am not sure.
However, it is great enough that Galadriel can contest with Sauron himself (for he often desired to view her realm, and she turned his Eye away), and win - even if it was a defensive action only and aided by Narya.
It is the Stature of the last surviving child of Finarfin to walk Middle Earth, 10,000 years of age.
Galadriel's Stature is shown eloquently by Peter Jackson when she manifests it for Frodo, perhaps half involuntarily - her response triggered by Frodo's offer of the One Ring.
I believe Galadriel WAS the reason the balrog did not come out right then and there, and raze Laurelindorian to the ground - certainly, it hated elves, and it had reason to want revenge against all elves, and it had a VERY bad disposition in general, to understate matters.
I think the balrog was intimidated by Galadriel, and decided not to risk battle with her.
Certainly, the dwarven army that won the Battle of Dimril Dale (the Dwarven-Orc Wars in which half the dwarves were killed, and Dain slew Azog) did not intimidate the balrog - it looked right at Dain as he peeked into East Gate, and it laughed in his face!
This is not a counter-rebuttal to Umbran - Umbran could comment that it supports his case further.
Merely commentary on the situation.
However ...
Now I have some counter-rebuttals for Umbran.
First of all, Gimli came seeking succor, but from orcs, not the balrog. That, however, is a very minor point.
Celeborn knew of the Fellowship and their mission.
Thus, he knew that the fate of Middle Earth, was in the hands of that Fellowship and Frodo.
The fate of HIS people, were in the hands of that Fellowship and Frodo.
Why?
The people of Lothlorien were trapped.
They could not go east, for Sauron held all those lands.
They could not go west (or, effectively, north,) for the Misty Mountains blocked the way, and orcs held those heights.
They could not go south and west, for Saruman blocked the way.
They could go straight south, and hope Gondor could shield them until they could fly over the Sea.
However, the total evacuation of Lothlorien would have taken time.
Time, is not something they had.
Even had they left - all of them - right after Frodo and the Fellowship, there is some question as to whether they could have gotten past Minas Tirith to the safety of Lebinnin before the Morgul Host came forth.
And, of course, the Haradrim were assailing the coasts in force, so the evacuation would have been made that much harder.
But that is not the real point either.
- - -
The POINT is, if Sauron regained the One Ring, it was over for Lothlorien, Galadriel or no Galadriel.
No chance to flee.
No hope of victory in combat.
No hope, to defend their land from the coming assault.
Certainly, no hope of mercy or quarter from Sauron.
Therefore, it was INCUMBENT upon Celeborn to aid the Fellowship, anyway he could.
ALL other considerations, were secondary.
Galadriel, understood this very well, and in everything she said and did, she worked to aid the Fellowship, aid Frodo, strengthen Frodo, and give the best council she could to Frodo and Fellowship.
However, Celeborn did NOT understand.
He allowed his border guard to waylay the Fellowship in an unfriendly matter, and to harass Gimli as a potential enemy.
He created a situation where - if Aragorn had not interfered - Gimli might have been KILLED. (Look at the pertinent part of the book, where Gimli became so infuriated he put hand to axe, and tell me I'm wrong!)
IF Gimli had been killed, that would have GREATLY harmed the effort to destroy the One Ring, for it would have brought grief, anger, and hostility to everyone in the Fellowship, and it would have justified with mockery the words of Boromir prior to their arrival in Lothlorien (I would rather walk through a path of spears, said he.)
EVERYONE in the Fellowship would have looked upon the elves with eyes clouded by the memory of Gimli's death - even Legolas, Aragorn, and Frodo would have had their perceptions altered.
Boromir would have looked upon the elves with hatred.
Pippin, Merry, and Sam would have looked upon them with fear and anger.
Legolas, Aragorn, and Frodo would have been traumatized, and at a loss for words.
It is likely Frodo would have closed his mind to the words of Galadriel.
It is likely he would not have looked into the Mirror.
It is possible no Gifts would have been given, and more likely yet that many in the Fellowship would not have desired Gifts.
Galadriel could not have undone the damage.
Murder, is not something you can just undo.
So, Frodo leaves Lothlorien WITHOUT the Phial of Galadriel - guess what happens at Cirith Ungol?
Frodo, leaves confused and hurt, less able than ever before to make the crucial decision to go alone to Mordor - which he must make to have any real chance to succeed.
Boromir, infuriated, is far less willing to work with Aragorn (the one who led them to Lothlorien) and he may well have support from the hobbits, and there is strife and anger within the Fellowship.
Legolas and Boromir do not get along at ALL, and Legolas is distracted from doing his job, because he must carry on a fight with Boromir.
But that's not the worst of it.
The WORST of it is that the One Ring is GREATLY empowered to corrupt EVERYONE in the Fellowship, including Sam and Frodo.
Callous acts (such as saying: it was stupid Gimli's fault he got killed, and we'll just let bygones be bygones - good riddance to the idiot!) strengthen the One Ring.
Allowing acts of murder to pass before your eyes, and doing nothing to bring about justice - especially when the deceased was your FRIEND, and the deceased fought to SAVE YOUR LIFE, darkens your mind and soul. And those who are darkened of mind and soul, are more vulnerable to the temptation of the One Ring.
Simply the EXPERIENCE of watching Gimli be shot down, and the trauma and horror of it - the sadness and subsequent grief - all of these things strengthen the power of the One Ring to corrupt the bearer.
So, now the One Ring has a crucial foothold on everyone in the Fellowship.
Aragorn, who withstood the Ring in the book, might not have been able to do so in this situation.
Boromir, would have collapsed much faster, if not immediately.
Legolas, with his justifying of the acts of the elves, would have brought hatred and anger against him from many in the Fellowship, and the Ring's pull on him would have been enhanced.
Merry and Pippin would have gone from revering elves to being terrified of them, and then being repulsed by them ... their altruism would have failed, and with that would have gone much of their strength to resist the One Ring.
Frodo would have seen the brutal murder of his friend by those he trusted.
He would have seen the Fellowship turn and look the other way, afterwards.
Grief and sorrow would have given way to futile anger, then cynicism, and his friendship with Aragorn and Legolas would have collapsed.
Certainly, he would have been more susceptible to the words of Boromir afterwards.
His heart darkened by the murder of Gimli, Frodo would have been crucially weakened, his Stature diminished (and diminished much further because he allowed that murder to pass, and did not seek justice for it, choosing expediency instead), and his capacity to resist the One Ring would have greatly lessened.
Thus, the mission to destroy the Ring would have failed.
Sauron would have taken back what was his.
Celeborn's people would have been massacred (the lucky ones) and sent to enjoy the gloom of the Halls of Mandos (the unlucky ones would have been taken alive as thralls of Sauron.)
Remember, this is TOLKIEN we are talking about, not D&D.
Expediency, has MUCH LESS of a place in Tolkien (killing Gollum would have been expedient.)
Mercy, charity, kindness, were very big matters in Middle Earth.
But what did Celeborn do?
He had to give way to anger and fear.
Anger and fear, SAURON'S weapons!
Anger and fear, when the FATE OF MIDDLE EARTH came running into his land, in the form of Frodo and his Fellowship.
Anger and fear, that almost led to the total destruction of Middle Earth and the massacre of ALL the elves who lived therein.
There was NO place for anger and fear in Celeborn's heart.
Anger and fear were beneath him, as a noble elf from the great Realm of Doriath, and Lord of Lothlorien.
It was his job and duty to put aside the weapons of the Enemy, and embrace those concepts that ultimately saved everyone - mercy, charity, kindness, forgiveness, and good deeds.
Fortunately for Celeborn, Galadriel was there to correct him.
It IS fortunate for Celeborn.
Wasn't the destruction of Doriath ENOUGH for Celeborn, or did he truly wish to see his people massacred a second time?
That is my counter-rebuttal to Umbran.
Heh. Note that you can sense the anger in my words.
But that anger, is NOT directed at Umbran!!
That anger, is directed at that idiot Celeborn.
Edena_of_Neith
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Some quotes about Galadriel:
"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
"Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched.[...]For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair."
"he grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
- Unfinished Tales, Part Two, chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
"Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched.[...]For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair."
"
- Unfinished Tales, Part Two, chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
To say Galadriel was wiser than Feanor, while Feanor was alive, is no small matter.
With Feanor, are talking about the single greatest craftsman who ever lived (or ever will live) in Middle Earth. And one of the most accomplished elves who has ever lived.
Certainly, he was wise, but Melkor poisoned him, and ruined him - an event mourned by the Valar more than the loss of the Two Trees.
In the end, Feanor went down in folly, and for the rest of the life of the World, he will be sitting in the Halls of Mandos, there to reflect on the folly Melkor led him into, and the almost inconceivably great harm his folly and foolish actions brought upon the world.
And Galadriel has grown in wisdom, for three long Ages since then.
A pity some of that wisdom didn't rub off on that stupid Celeborn, her husband!
As for height, I believe the women of the Noldor (including Arwen) stood around 6 foot 8 to 7 feet tall, so if I am right Galadriel was considerably taller than 7 feet.
More like 7 foot 6 inches or so.
Quite a tall lady!
With Feanor, are talking about the single greatest craftsman who ever lived (or ever will live) in Middle Earth. And one of the most accomplished elves who has ever lived.
Certainly, he was wise, but Melkor poisoned him, and ruined him - an event mourned by the Valar more than the loss of the Two Trees.
In the end, Feanor went down in folly, and for the rest of the life of the World, he will be sitting in the Halls of Mandos, there to reflect on the folly Melkor led him into, and the almost inconceivably great harm his folly and foolish actions brought upon the world.
And Galadriel has grown in wisdom, for three long Ages since then.
A pity some of that wisdom didn't rub off on that stupid Celeborn, her husband!
As for height, I believe the women of the Noldor (including Arwen) stood around 6 foot 8 to 7 feet tall, so if I am right Galadriel was considerably taller than 7 feet.
More like 7 foot 6 inches or so.
Quite a tall lady!
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
I think you vastly exaggerate Celeborn's potential reaction. He wasn't called "the Wise" for nothing.
You might as well speculate upon Aragorn killing Frodo and taking the Ring, since it would be his "rightful" inheritance as an heir of Isildur, or maybe even Pippin doing the same as the heir to the Thane of the Shire - because what other hobbit would have the right to the Ring? The point is, what you spoeculate upon is so far out of character for Celeborn as to not be possible. He was badly shaken by the news of Gandalf's death and the revelation of a balrog being so close by - cut him some slack. He would have regained his composure eventually, without Galadriel's counsel, and would certainly never have slain the companion of his granddaughter's betrothed.
You might as well speculate upon Aragorn killing Frodo and taking the Ring, since it would be his "rightful" inheritance as an heir of Isildur, or maybe even Pippin doing the same as the heir to the Thane of the Shire - because what other hobbit would have the right to the Ring? The point is, what you spoeculate upon is so far out of character for Celeborn as to not be possible. He was badly shaken by the news of Gandalf's death and the revelation of a balrog being so close by - cut him some slack. He would have regained his composure eventually, without Galadriel's counsel, and would certainly never have slain the companion of his granddaughter's betrothed.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
I never got the impression that Feanor was particularly wise. Carefully read this quote:
"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart..."
Quenta Silmarillion - The History of the Silmarils, Chapter 5: Of Eldamar
So, of the sons of Finwe, Feanor was not the wisest, maybe even the least wise.
His conduct in general shows a lack of wisdom, even taking into account whatever influence was upon him.
"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart..."
Quenta Silmarillion - The History of the Silmarils, Chapter 5: Of Eldamar
So, of the sons of Finwe, Feanor was not the wisest, maybe even the least wise.
His conduct in general shows a lack of wisdom, even taking into account whatever influence was upon him.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I cannot afford to cut Celeborn slack, in spite of the dreadful news about Gandalf, not to mention the balrog.
Why?
For one, Galadriel handled the situation in stride, and Celeborn should be held to a high standard as her husband (not as high as her, but high enough.)
And two, there was no room for slack. Not in this scenario. The situation was too dangerous, too desperate, and too much was at stake, for anyone to afford to give way like Celeborn did.
- - -
I am not saying Celeborn killed Gimli, or would have.
I AM saying that Celeborn nearly got Gimli killed, for Haldir and the border guard answered to Celeborn, and they nearly killed Gimli.
It was incumbent upon Celeborn, as Lord of Lothlorien, to ensure a warm and speedy welcome for the Fellowship.
Even if he had to be there personally, to see they got that welcome - and, in my opinion, he should have been there, personally.
I would point the finger of accusation at Galadriel herself, except that she is not ruler of Lothlorien - Celeborn is, and she defers to him.
Not that this entirely excuses Galadriel either - which shows what could be a serious fault in Tolkien's writing, since Galadriel acts very wisely and intelligently otherwise.
Why?
For one, Galadriel handled the situation in stride, and Celeborn should be held to a high standard as her husband (not as high as her, but high enough.)
And two, there was no room for slack. Not in this scenario. The situation was too dangerous, too desperate, and too much was at stake, for anyone to afford to give way like Celeborn did.
- - -
I am not saying Celeborn killed Gimli, or would have.
I AM saying that Celeborn nearly got Gimli killed, for Haldir and the border guard answered to Celeborn, and they nearly killed Gimli.
It was incumbent upon Celeborn, as Lord of Lothlorien, to ensure a warm and speedy welcome for the Fellowship.
Even if he had to be there personally, to see they got that welcome - and, in my opinion, he should have been there, personally.
I would point the finger of accusation at Galadriel herself, except that she is not ruler of Lothlorien - Celeborn is, and she defers to him.
Not that this entirely excuses Galadriel either - which shows what could be a serious fault in Tolkien's writing, since Galadriel acts very wisely and intelligently otherwise.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Since when did Celeborn "nearly" get Gimli killed? That's not in my copy of the book.
Legolas was along for a specific reason - to represent the elves in the Fellowship. That's why the Elf-wardens gave the group the benefit of the doubt, even with the dwarf. The inclusion of Legolas thus did its job. Nobody was almost killed.
I think you need to re-read the entire sequence with Celeborn. He came off as, at worst, shaken. So he wanted to ensure the safety of his realm - what's so bad about that? Cut him some slack.
That's pretty much all I have to say about this.
Legolas was along for a specific reason - to represent the elves in the Fellowship. That's why the Elf-wardens gave the group the benefit of the doubt, even with the dwarf. The inclusion of Legolas thus did its job. Nobody was almost killed.
I think you need to re-read the entire sequence with Celeborn. He came off as, at worst, shaken. So he wanted to ensure the safety of his realm - what's so bad about that? Cut him some slack.
That's pretty much all I have to say about this.
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