A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien

[tleilaxu]

hey Col. I posted some stuff on the MEd20 list. Check it out if you get the chance and criticize

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm certainly not here to argue.

Just discussing matters.

I guess, Colonel Hardisson, that what shook me up was when Gimli put his hand on his axe.
That shook me up. One does not put hand to weapon lightly, especially when the Lothlorien border guard are covering you with their bows!

Gimli was impulsive, and stubborn, and putting his hand to his axe wasn't the smartest move, in my opinion.

He obstinately proclaimed he would go home, and they could all stuff it (to be metaphorical), and when they warned him to cut it out, and forget going back, he put his hand on his axe.

A real bad situation, that one!

I guess it's stuck in my mind ever since, and the consequences too - if Gimli had given in to anger and drawn that axe.

Just on my mind, Colonel Harisson. Not trying to argue here. Just discussing things.

 

[tleilaxu]

Edena sez:

Only the journey of Eorl (which Galadriel aided) and his men, brought a measure of peace - to Laurelindorian's south - but the Rohirrim were ever fearful of the elves, and had no converse with them of any sort. Later, they came to fear them very greatly.

/Edena

Hey, can I get the reference for Galadriel aiding Eorl? Just curious

 

[Umbran]

I think you need to re-read the entire sequence with Celeborn. He came off as, at worst, shaken.

Actually, let's take a look at the quote...

"Alas!" said Celeborn. "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdominto folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

Let's face it, Celeborn has a point - going into Moria was a stupid manuver. Gandalf and Aragorn both knew it, but saw no other choice. Celeborn, hearing what's happened, has every right to think, "My god, these guys are idiots! If the world hangs in the balance of these people's actions, we are doomed." He says so explicitly - that it seems Gandalf has slipped into folly.

If the saviors of the world are that dumb, you too would think twice about letting them into your lands. At that point, there's somethign to be said for curling up under a rock and enjoying your last moments, or trying to flee to the West.

Note, however, the complete lack of actual anger. No flashing eyes, nothing. He's quietly speaking his mind. And, a moment later he says it himself - "I spoke in the trouble of my heart."

Do not count the words spoken in one situation as a true report of what he'd have done in another situation. People often say, "If I had but known..." But, really, even one of the Wise doesn't truly know what he'd have done in an alternate reality.

Think about the two basic possibilities of how Celeborn might have known - in one a messenger (perhaps Legolas) goes ahead of the Fellowship, and gives the news. In this case, there is time for Celeborn to think, and not let his emotions take him where he shouldn't go. In this case, he doesn't almost kill Gimli - he comes to the same conclusion he does in the book.

In the other basic scenario, the Balrog comes screaming out of the Dimrill Dale, hot on the Fellowship's heels. At that point, Celeborn would have every right to keep them out - that is, if he was at leisure to decide, as he'd probably be off fighting the damned thing.

 

[tleilaxu]

well i always thought celeborn was a tool anyway. but i guess the prom queen's boyfriend always seems like a tool to the rest of us.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Really? Sounds like he is being a pompous jerk who doesnt know what he is talking about. Moria was the only path they could take and the result was the death of only one of 7. Going over the top of the mountain would kill 7 of 7. Going south would encounter Sauruman who is more powerful than the Balrog and result in him gaining the ring.

So what would our pointy eared genius have done?

Actually, let's take a look at the quote...

"Alas!" said Celeborn. "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdominto folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

Let's face it, Celeborn has a point - going into Moria was a stupid manuver. Gandalf and Aragorn both knew it, but saw no other choice. Celeborn, hearing what's happened, has every right to think, "My god, these guys are idiots! If the world hangs in the balance of these people's actions, we are doomed." He says so explicitly - that it seems Gandalf has slipped into folly.

If the saviors of the world are that dumb, you too would think twice about letting them into your lands. At that point, there's somethign to be said for curling up under a rock and enjoying your last moments, or trying to flee to the West.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, let's take a look at the quote...

Thanks. That's a lot better than I could have put it.

Edena - I'm not being combative. It just seems that your basic premise is flawed. If anything, Gimli is the one who is more inclined to start a fight - note that he was the one to make the first aggressive move. But besides that, as I said, what you propose is against Celeborn's nature. Sure, it could've happened, just like my scenarios with Aragorn and Pippin doing in Frodo could have happened - but it wouldn't have happened, at least not in any scenario that stayed true to Tolkien's intent.

I like alternate universe ideas, I really do. It's just that I think they are more successful when they are based upon attitudes and actions that we actually witness in the book or TV show or movie that is using this device. In this case, there is nothing to indicate that Celeborn would have such an extreme reaction. Galadriel, who was able to see into the hearts of people, would likely not have married, and remained married, to a guy who would precipitously off somebody like you propose. She knew Celeborn's heart, which should be an indication to the reader that the Fellowship would not have been in danger of him even if Galadriel was absent.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Really? Sounds like he is being a pompous jerk who doesnt know what he is talking about. Moria was the only path they could take and the result was the death of only one of 7. Going over the top of the mountain would kill 7 of 7. Going south would encounter Sauruman who is more powerful than the Balrog and result in him gaining the ring.

So what would our pointy eared genius have done?

As I said above, Galadriel knew Celeborn better than anyone else, and she deferred to him. That's an indication that Celeborn was certainly not a pompous jerk who spouts off at the mouth.

In addition, Saruman's betrayal was only recently known - remember, he was even mentioned at the Council of Elrond, and everyone seemed shocked to find he was working against them.

Celeborn also could not know that Redhorn Pass itself would work against the Fellowship - remember, messengers were spoken of going back over the pass when the Fellowship first entered Lorien.

So, even if the Fellowship's path was a point of concern, Celeborn would have every reason to think a Moria passage was the worst choice to make.

 

[Umbran]

Moria was the only path they could take ....

Incorrect. They could return north and try to cross the mountains elsewhere (and face orcs and snow). They could go through Moria and face a Balrog. They can go south and face Saruman (who may or may not be more powerful/dangerous than the Balrog, we have no way to determine for sure). They can go even further south, bypassing Saruman and weather, and enter Gondor from the west (but this takes a lot of time).

The Fellowship had a handfull of options, all of them bad. Which choice is "worst" is a matter of opinion and perspective. Being on the Balrog's front porch, being the guy who has to deal with it if it comes out, Celeborn is within his rights to call it dumb.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

So he is instead guilty of talking when he doesnt know what he was talking about.

As I said above, Galadriel knew Celeborn better than anyone else, and she deferred to him. That's an indication that Celeborn was certainly not a pompous jerk who spouts off at the mouth.

In addition, Saruman's betrayal was only recently known - remember, he was even mentioned at the Council of Elrond, and everyone seemed shocked to find he was working against them.

Celeborn also could not know that Redhorn Pass itself would work against the Fellowship - remember, messengers were spoken of going back over the pass when the Fellowship first entered Lorien.

So, even if the Fellowship's path was a point of concern, Celeborn would have every reason to think a Moria passage was the worst choice to make.