ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
DocMoriartty said:
What Kid Charlemagne said pretty much sums it up. Sauron had lots of eyes and ears out and about, many of which would see Glorfindel as a big, bright beacon - which he was, in a way.
A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
What Kid Charlemagne said pretty much sums it up. Sauron had lots of eyes and ears out and about, many of which would see Glorfindel as a big, bright beacon - which he was, in a way.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(deleted)
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JacktheRabbit
Explorer
I disagree, and in I think the book pretty well suggests that Sauron has no effective spies West of Rohan. Look at what the book tells you. At one point the Orcs become so scared of Samwise near Mordor that they are certain that he is an ElfLord of some sort.
Yet no such talk comes after the party makes it through Moria. This suggests that the goblins there are independent with no communication with Sauron and his forces. If they were then Sauron would have moved much faster if he had known that someone was heading east that was powerful enough to defeat his Balrog. I think this also suggests that Sauron knew nothing of the Balrog under Moria. He at best may have known it was there but he had no communication with it and no control over it.
Yet no such talk comes after the party makes it through Moria. This suggests that the goblins there are independent with no communication with Sauron and his forces. If they were then Sauron would have moved much faster if he had known that someone was heading east that was powerful enough to defeat his Balrog. I think this also suggests that Sauron knew nothing of the Balrog under Moria. He at best may have known it was there but he had no communication with it and no control over it.
ColonelHardisson said:
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
BTW, several people have suggested that the Balrog was close to as powerful as Sauron himself.
I thought about this and disagreed. Gandalf defeated the Balrog though it mortally wounded him. Saruman was able to defeat and imprison Gandalf. This suggests that Saruman would have been able to defeat the Balrog, possibly without the mortal wounding Gandalf received.
One thing has always bothered me though. Gandalf wore the Ring of Fire. Some have suggested it greatly aided him in his battle against the Balrog. How was Gandalf defeated by Saruman while wearing it and why was the ring never taken from him by Saruman? The book mentions that Saruman is probably the greatest holder of ring lore in Middle Earth next to Sauron himself. I find it hard to believe that Saruman would have not taken the ring for himself for the power it would grant him. The only solution I can think of is that Gandalf did not use the ring to fight Saruman for whatever reason and instead focused all of the rings powers on hiding itself from Saruman. Maybe Gandalf felt that even with the ring of fire he could not defeat Saruman and using it would expose it to Saruman who would then take it and thus make him even more powerful.
I thought about this and disagreed. Gandalf defeated the Balrog though it mortally wounded him. Saruman was able to defeat and imprison Gandalf. This suggests that Saruman would have been able to defeat the Balrog, possibly without the mortal wounding Gandalf received.
One thing has always bothered me though. Gandalf wore the Ring of Fire. Some have suggested it greatly aided him in his battle against the Balrog. How was Gandalf defeated by Saruman while wearing it and why was the ring never taken from him by Saruman? The book mentions that Saruman is probably the greatest holder of ring lore in Middle Earth next to Sauron himself. I find it hard to believe that Saruman would have not taken the ring for himself for the power it would grant him. The only solution I can think of is that Gandalf did not use the ring to fight Saruman for whatever reason and instead focused all of the rings powers on hiding itself from Saruman. Maybe Gandalf felt that even with the ring of fire he could not defeat Saruman and using it would expose it to Saruman who would then take it and thus make him even more powerful.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
DocMoriartty said:
The crebain are Sauron's spies, almost certainly.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning about Sauron and whether or not he would have detected the presence of someone like Glorfindel. Gandalf he would have detected if he used magic with a free hand, but since Gandalf had the body of a man, he would probably show up as a dim figure such as Aragorn or the Hobbits. Glorfindel would have been a lot more detectable.
Sauron almost certainly knew of the Balrog, but just as with Shelob, he was content to let the creature remain where it was to help keep the Free Peoples off-balance.
The orcs that took Moria in the first place had to have come from Dol Guldur, which was held by Sauron's forces even after he left. This suggests that Sauron did, indeed, know the Balrog was there, and may have been in sporadic communication with him. Sending messengers to each other may have been tough, though, given the lands such messengers had to go past or through to get to Mordor.
Besides, what would Sauron have done more quickly had he known about the Balrog's demise? The Fellowship was in Lorien for quite a while, but we know Sauron had spies about, including the Nazgul. Legolas shoots one down not long after the Fellowship leaves Lorien. So Sauron was still moving quickly, he just didn't know exactly what was going on. As discussed in the book, he feared someone claiming the Ring and using it; he knew that hadn't happened, but he knew something was going on.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Poor Sauron! The chap did the best he could!
I will attempt to look at it from Sauron's point of view:
If I was Sauron:
I would have been dismayed when my nine best slaves came fleeing back unhorsed and crippled.
I would have tortured them properly for their failure to capture the Ring, then tortured them some more for allowing themselves to get caught in Elrond's trap (Arwen's, in the film), then I would have tortured them some more yet, for good measure.
Now, in the book Sauron forbad his Nazgul from showing themselves west of Anduin after that point, until the incident with the Palantir, so I will leave the Nazgul there, and turn to Sauron's other servants.
I would have ordered the Crebain to send word to the orcs of the Misty Mountains with this message:
Nothing gets through.
Nothing gets through, whether over the Mountains or under them.
I would have demanded that the orcs of the Misty Mountains send out patrols to scout throughout Dunland, Edenwaith, Holland, and ESPECIALLY all the lands around Rivendell, and for word to be sent back IMMEDIATELY (through birds, or drum messages, or whatever means was faster) to me on ALL the movements of the Enemy in Imladris.
I would have sent word through the Crebain to the wolves to mobilize, and attack or at least harass any and all of the Enemy that came out of Imladris, and report back (via the Crebain, orcs, or however necessary) to me concerning the Enemy's movements.
Now, in the books, Sauron did do something pretty close to this.
The crebain and wolves did mobilize, and they did scout - and I have always wondered if the wrath of Caradhras (that snowstorm it sent) didn't save the party from an orc-ambush higher up (a fate that befell Celebrian, Elrond's wife.)
As for the balrog, no need for direct communication.
Why?
Apparently the One Ring has this way of stirring up Evil wherever it goes.
Although the balrog cannot sense it directly, it's like a distant (and annoying) sound to the monster, and when balrogs get annoyed, they kill the annoyer.
Besides, I have all my orcs in eastern Moria on High Alert, and they have already roused the balrog (probably, a few of them died because of that, but who cares?)
So let the Ringbearer come at me through Moria!
My greatest ally is waiting for him, with a great force of orcs to aid it.
If those accursed Noldor show their faces outside of Imladris, I'm going to know about it.
Their presence - their Manifestation - terrifies or at least intimidates my orcs and wolves ... which gives them away at once.
If they stick their elven noses into Moria, THAT will alert the balrog, and we all know what balrogs like to do with elves.
If that cowardly, slinking assassin from the Rebel West (that is, Gandalf) comes around, he'll give himself away eventually - the moment he manifests his power, my servants will know of him, and thus ... I ... will know of him.
If he tries to go through Moria, that balrog is going to detect him.
So, my Enemy is bottled up in Imladris.
If they come out in strength, I'm going to know, and know pretty much exactly who is coming, how many are coming, and where they are going.
If they come with the Ring, that's going to be so obvious it would almost (almost!) be humorous to me.
And if they sent those rats (the hobbits) or lowly men, hoping to secretly spirit the Ring or something else out of Imladris, my servants will find them and, if not destroy them, bring the word to me.
Let them come!
I would like to SEE them try to blast their way through the Morannon.
Even with the Ring, they are going to have a hard time doing that.
Imladris cannot field a significant army.
Lothlorien is full of a bunch of pathetic wood elves, guarded by someone I HATE (and fear), but SHE insists on staying there and protecting those weaklings, so she isn't a menace.
Gondor isn't going to assault the Morannon. LOL. If they try, I send the Morgul Host out and obliterate their country behind them.
Rohan has it's hands full with my new slave, Saruman, and his slave army, and those stupid Dunlanders.
They aren't going to be a problem.
So, come, Ringbearer, come.
Come, in your arrogance and your new-found power, and dare to face me, Sauron the Great.
Come, quickly or slowly, openly or in secret.
Anyway you come, my servants will find you.
They will take you alive, and they will tear the Ring from your thieving hand.
I will have back, what is mine.
And YOU, will be mine, for as long as the World lasts, to torture, to break and ruin, to be avenged on in totality for your stupidity, your arrogant defiance, your filthy thievery, and your presumption to be more than you are.
- - -
If you look at the matter, it was a terribly close call, for Sauron did employ most of the measures above.
Sauron's scouts reached Hollin just as the Fellowship did.
Sauron's scouts discovered the Fellowship in Hollin (to think one can hide from the sight of BIRDS is folly ... it is simply not possible, except maybe for the Noldor.)
Gandalf revealed himself to Sauron on Caradhras.
The wolves tracked down the party within hours.
The wolves assaulted the party as ordered, to test their strength.
It is LIKELY that orcs from the Misty Mountains were on the trail of the Fellowship (as Aragorn noted ... where the wolf howls, the orc prowls.)
Sauron temporarily lost the party when they entered Moria.
Good ol Pippin gave the party's location away, quite nicely, to the orc scouts carefully placed in western Moria.
The orc-ambush should have succeeded, in east Moria - the orcs failed to plug every escape hole, for which I must assume Sauron intended them a nice repayment later on.
The balrog, alerted by the Ring, Gandalf's presence, Pippin's stone, and the readied orc ambush, took out Gandalf.
The orcs pursued the Fellowship to Lothlorien - although they were driven out of Lothlorien, this told Sauron exactly where the Fellowship (and probably the Ring ... it wouldn't take a genius to figure out someone in that company of thieves and rebels had it) was.
Since Sauron couldn't look into Lothlorien, because Galadriel had the strength to oppose him, he had to wait until they left.
But he mobilized his elite scouts, under the command of his highly capable commander Grishnakh, and he readied the flying Nazgul - to scout all the lands south of Lothlorien and east of Anduin, and he had help (or, at least he thought he did) from forces of Saruman also moving to intercept the Fellowship.
Best of all, a large contingent of those orcs of Moria had made it south, and had joined in the hunt.
With all three teams of orcs, and the winged Nazgul in place, and trained scouts on the east banks of Anduin, Sauron had every right to believe he would intercept and destroy the Fellowship.
And thus, regain the Ring.
He would have, too, if a certain TRAITOR had not ordered his lackey (Ugluk) to defy Grishnakh, and haul the captives taken off the WRONG WAY - especially since one of the Nazgul was waiting to pick up the captives, and bring them in for interrogation (and, perhaps, they had the Ring!)
For which, I must assume, Sauron had a special plan for Saruman's (and Ugluk's) future, and it wasn't pleasant or nice.
Finally, the UPSTART who thought himself worthy of being King of the West (HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!) shows himself in the Palantir, and wrestles with Sauron.
And wins!
He ... WINS! (gasp)
No more Mr Nice Guy.
No more shilly-shallying about.
It's time to strike to kill.
Time to strike hard, strike fast, and obliterate all of the rebels in one great sweep.
Only ... well, Sauron's Darkness breaks too soon.
His High Commander is killed.
His Morgul Host is obliterated.
The Upstart defeats his Corsairs, and USURPS the ships, with an Army of the Dead, of all things ...
Saruman the Traitor proves himself Saruman the Incompetent, when he goes down to defeat.
And Gandalf the Grey returns as Gandalf the WHITE.
Talk about a Sauron-sized headache.
He was probably throwing fits in Barad-Dur.
If I were an orc, I would NOT have wanted to be present, around that time.
- - -
Then, as Gimli says, it gets even better!
They send word to Sauron, TWO DAYS after the fact, that Enemies have penetrated Morgul Vale, and gotten up the Stairs.
Sauron immediately sends orders to apprehend these Enemies, of course!
Then a confusing bunch of (several very foul words deleted) comes to Sauron.
To say the situation is FUBAR, is understating things drastically.
Apparently, a great Elf-Warrior attacked the Tower of Cirth Ungol, forced his way in, and rescued the prisoner.
But NO, it wasn't an Elf-Warrior, it was one of those rats from the Shire. (Not likely!)
But no AGAIN, it was a large force of Uruk-Hai from Minas Morgul, who for some insane reason decided to attack the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
But no YET AGAIN, it was the Uruk-Hai AND the Elf-Warrior, and the rat also, or maybe it was just the Uruk-Hai and the rat, or maybe just the Elf-Warrior and the rat, or maybe ...
The Watchers protecting the Tower were destroyed, and Shelob was wounded, so whatever it was, it was VERY powerful.
And now this idiot, Shagrat, is saying it was all Gorbag's fault, and the orcs of Minas Morgul started it without cause (uh-huh, right), and he did his job properly (in which case, why isn't the prisoner here, in Barad-Dur???), and that he ...
Well, he was told Gollum might be involved, and he had orders to leave Gollum alone, and that perhaps Shelob was having some fun, and he had orders to leave HER alone, and it wasn't his fault everyone else messed up.
And now, even the NAZGUL who is sent to clean up the debacle at the Tower is returned, with news the prisoner is escaped, one of the Enemy is still on the loose - in SAURON'S land, and even the NAZGUL does not know WHAT happened at the Tower, or how the prisoner escaped, or why Gorbag's forces and Shagrat's forces fought, or who started that fight, or when the Enemy came up the Stair, or why Minas Morgul didn't intercept the Enemy, or anything else. Anything at all!
Those orcs sent to track the Enemy in Sauron's land, never return - except that one is found dead, with an ORC arrow in him.
They cannot even tell Sauron where Gollum is, what part he played in all of this, or how it is he is back in Sauron's land, skulking about.
- - -
If I were Sauron, I'd be at my wit's end.
And I'd be angry. I'd be so angry that there are no words This Person can say on the ENBoards to describe it.
I guess, the rant in Top Gun might be a pale echo of that anger. To paraphrase that anger:
WHO GAVE THESE PILOTS THE RIGHT TO BUZZ MY TOWER? I WANT SOME BUTTS, DO YOU HEAR? I WANT SOME BUTTS!
I will attempt to look at it from Sauron's point of view:
If I was Sauron:
I would have been dismayed when my nine best slaves came fleeing back unhorsed and crippled.
I would have tortured them properly for their failure to capture the Ring, then tortured them some more for allowing themselves to get caught in Elrond's trap (Arwen's, in the film), then I would have tortured them some more yet, for good measure.
Now, in the book Sauron forbad his Nazgul from showing themselves west of Anduin after that point, until the incident with the Palantir, so I will leave the Nazgul there, and turn to Sauron's other servants.
I would have ordered the Crebain to send word to the orcs of the Misty Mountains with this message:
Nothing gets through.
Nothing gets through, whether over the Mountains or under them.
I would have demanded that the orcs of the Misty Mountains send out patrols to scout throughout Dunland, Edenwaith, Holland, and ESPECIALLY all the lands around Rivendell, and for word to be sent back IMMEDIATELY (through birds, or drum messages, or whatever means was faster) to me on ALL the movements of the Enemy in Imladris.
I would have sent word through the Crebain to the wolves to mobilize, and attack or at least harass any and all of the Enemy that came out of Imladris, and report back (via the Crebain, orcs, or however necessary) to me concerning the Enemy's movements.
Now, in the books, Sauron did do something pretty close to this.
The crebain and wolves did mobilize, and they did scout - and I have always wondered if the wrath of Caradhras (that snowstorm it sent) didn't save the party from an orc-ambush higher up (a fate that befell Celebrian, Elrond's wife.)
As for the balrog, no need for direct communication.
Why?
Apparently the One Ring has this way of stirring up Evil wherever it goes.
Although the balrog cannot sense it directly, it's like a distant (and annoying) sound to the monster, and when balrogs get annoyed, they kill the annoyer.
Besides, I have all my orcs in eastern Moria on High Alert, and they have already roused the balrog (probably, a few of them died because of that, but who cares?)
So let the Ringbearer come at me through Moria!
My greatest ally is waiting for him, with a great force of orcs to aid it.
If those accursed Noldor show their faces outside of Imladris, I'm going to know about it.
Their presence - their Manifestation - terrifies or at least intimidates my orcs and wolves ... which gives them away at once.
If they stick their elven noses into Moria, THAT will alert the balrog, and we all know what balrogs like to do with elves.
If that cowardly, slinking assassin from the Rebel West (that is, Gandalf) comes around, he'll give himself away eventually - the moment he manifests his power, my servants will know of him, and thus ... I ... will know of him.
If he tries to go through Moria, that balrog is going to detect him.
So, my Enemy is bottled up in Imladris.
If they come out in strength, I'm going to know, and know pretty much exactly who is coming, how many are coming, and where they are going.
If they come with the Ring, that's going to be so obvious it would almost (almost!) be humorous to me.
And if they sent those rats (the hobbits) or lowly men, hoping to secretly spirit the Ring or something else out of Imladris, my servants will find them and, if not destroy them, bring the word to me.
Let them come!
I would like to SEE them try to blast their way through the Morannon.
Even with the Ring, they are going to have a hard time doing that.
Imladris cannot field a significant army.
Lothlorien is full of a bunch of pathetic wood elves, guarded by someone I HATE (and fear), but SHE insists on staying there and protecting those weaklings, so she isn't a menace.
Gondor isn't going to assault the Morannon. LOL. If they try, I send the Morgul Host out and obliterate their country behind them.
Rohan has it's hands full with my new slave, Saruman, and his slave army, and those stupid Dunlanders.
They aren't going to be a problem.
So, come, Ringbearer, come.
Come, in your arrogance and your new-found power, and dare to face me, Sauron the Great.
Come, quickly or slowly, openly or in secret.
Anyway you come, my servants will find you.
They will take you alive, and they will tear the Ring from your thieving hand.
I will have back, what is mine.
And YOU, will be mine, for as long as the World lasts, to torture, to break and ruin, to be avenged on in totality for your stupidity, your arrogant defiance, your filthy thievery, and your presumption to be more than you are.
- - -
If you look at the matter, it was a terribly close call, for Sauron did employ most of the measures above.
Sauron's scouts reached Hollin just as the Fellowship did.
Sauron's scouts discovered the Fellowship in Hollin (to think one can hide from the sight of BIRDS is folly ... it is simply not possible, except maybe for the Noldor.)
Gandalf revealed himself to Sauron on Caradhras.
The wolves tracked down the party within hours.
The wolves assaulted the party as ordered, to test their strength.
It is LIKELY that orcs from the Misty Mountains were on the trail of the Fellowship (as Aragorn noted ... where the wolf howls, the orc prowls.)
Sauron temporarily lost the party when they entered Moria.
Good ol Pippin gave the party's location away, quite nicely, to the orc scouts carefully placed in western Moria.
The orc-ambush should have succeeded, in east Moria - the orcs failed to plug every escape hole, for which I must assume Sauron intended them a nice repayment later on.
The balrog, alerted by the Ring, Gandalf's presence, Pippin's stone, and the readied orc ambush, took out Gandalf.
The orcs pursued the Fellowship to Lothlorien - although they were driven out of Lothlorien, this told Sauron exactly where the Fellowship (and probably the Ring ... it wouldn't take a genius to figure out someone in that company of thieves and rebels had it) was.
Since Sauron couldn't look into Lothlorien, because Galadriel had the strength to oppose him, he had to wait until they left.
But he mobilized his elite scouts, under the command of his highly capable commander Grishnakh, and he readied the flying Nazgul - to scout all the lands south of Lothlorien and east of Anduin, and he had help (or, at least he thought he did) from forces of Saruman also moving to intercept the Fellowship.
Best of all, a large contingent of those orcs of Moria had made it south, and had joined in the hunt.
With all three teams of orcs, and the winged Nazgul in place, and trained scouts on the east banks of Anduin, Sauron had every right to believe he would intercept and destroy the Fellowship.
And thus, regain the Ring.
He would have, too, if a certain TRAITOR had not ordered his lackey (Ugluk) to defy Grishnakh, and haul the captives taken off the WRONG WAY - especially since one of the Nazgul was waiting to pick up the captives, and bring them in for interrogation (and, perhaps, they had the Ring!)
For which, I must assume, Sauron had a special plan for Saruman's (and Ugluk's) future, and it wasn't pleasant or nice.
Finally, the UPSTART who thought himself worthy of being King of the West (HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!) shows himself in the Palantir, and wrestles with Sauron.
And wins!
He ... WINS! (gasp)
No more Mr Nice Guy.
No more shilly-shallying about.
It's time to strike to kill.
Time to strike hard, strike fast, and obliterate all of the rebels in one great sweep.
Only ... well, Sauron's Darkness breaks too soon.
His High Commander is killed.
His Morgul Host is obliterated.
The Upstart defeats his Corsairs, and USURPS the ships, with an Army of the Dead, of all things ...
Saruman the Traitor proves himself Saruman the Incompetent, when he goes down to defeat.
And Gandalf the Grey returns as Gandalf the WHITE.
Talk about a Sauron-sized headache.
He was probably throwing fits in Barad-Dur.
If I were an orc, I would NOT have wanted to be present, around that time.
- - -
Then, as Gimli says, it gets even better!
They send word to Sauron, TWO DAYS after the fact, that Enemies have penetrated Morgul Vale, and gotten up the Stairs.
Sauron immediately sends orders to apprehend these Enemies, of course!
Then a confusing bunch of (several very foul words deleted) comes to Sauron.
To say the situation is FUBAR, is understating things drastically.
Apparently, a great Elf-Warrior attacked the Tower of Cirth Ungol, forced his way in, and rescued the prisoner.
But NO, it wasn't an Elf-Warrior, it was one of those rats from the Shire. (Not likely!)
But no AGAIN, it was a large force of Uruk-Hai from Minas Morgul, who for some insane reason decided to attack the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
But no YET AGAIN, it was the Uruk-Hai AND the Elf-Warrior, and the rat also, or maybe it was just the Uruk-Hai and the rat, or maybe just the Elf-Warrior and the rat, or maybe ...
The Watchers protecting the Tower were destroyed, and Shelob was wounded, so whatever it was, it was VERY powerful.
And now this idiot, Shagrat, is saying it was all Gorbag's fault, and the orcs of Minas Morgul started it without cause (uh-huh, right), and he did his job properly (in which case, why isn't the prisoner here, in Barad-Dur???), and that he ...
Well, he was told Gollum might be involved, and he had orders to leave Gollum alone, and that perhaps Shelob was having some fun, and he had orders to leave HER alone, and it wasn't his fault everyone else messed up.
And now, even the NAZGUL who is sent to clean up the debacle at the Tower is returned, with news the prisoner is escaped, one of the Enemy is still on the loose - in SAURON'S land, and even the NAZGUL does not know WHAT happened at the Tower, or how the prisoner escaped, or why Gorbag's forces and Shagrat's forces fought, or who started that fight, or when the Enemy came up the Stair, or why Minas Morgul didn't intercept the Enemy, or anything else. Anything at all!
Those orcs sent to track the Enemy in Sauron's land, never return - except that one is found dead, with an ORC arrow in him.
They cannot even tell Sauron where Gollum is, what part he played in all of this, or how it is he is back in Sauron's land, skulking about.
- - -
If I were Sauron, I'd be at my wit's end.
And I'd be angry. I'd be so angry that there are no words This Person can say on the ENBoards to describe it.
I guess, the rant in Top Gun might be a pale echo of that anger. To paraphrase that anger:
WHO GAVE THESE PILOTS THE RIGHT TO BUZZ MY TOWER? I WANT SOME BUTTS, DO YOU HEAR? I WANT SOME BUTTS!
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Storm Raven
First Post
Re: Poor Sauron! The chap did the best he could!
The entire existence of the Nazgul was misery. Their continued life was torture, they hated life, and they feared death more. There was probably no way for Sauron to increase the suffering of the Nazgul, since they were his greatest corruption, and his corruption's always caused misery to those who are ensared within them.
Edena_of_Neith said:
The entire existence of the Nazgul was misery. Their continued life was torture, they hated life, and they feared death more. There was probably no way for Sauron to increase the suffering of the Nazgul, since they were his greatest corruption, and his corruption's always caused misery to those who are ensared within them.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Hey guys! Click the link in my sig and check out the contest we're running at the Middle Earth d20 conversion site!
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Doing it now, Colonel Hardisson.
- - -
Concerning the torture of the Nazgul, I - Sauron the Great - would put my 10,000 years of knowledge on the subject to good use.
The Nazgul may be in constant pain, the satisfying consequences of my, Sauron's, work, but it's only pain.
Mere pain and torture is nothing compared to my WRATH when I must endure bungling idiots who repeatedly let rats, rebels, and thieves run off with MY Ring!
- - -
Concerning the torture of the Nazgul, I - Sauron the Great - would put my 10,000 years of knowledge on the subject to good use.
The Nazgul may be in constant pain, the satisfying consequences of my, Sauron's, work, but it's only pain.
Mere pain and torture is nothing compared to my WRATH when I must endure bungling idiots who repeatedly let rats, rebels, and thieves run off with MY Ring!
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