A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien

[tleilaxu]

Edena sez:
Take a look at the Tolkien section in the bookstore.
You will find a number of supplemental books to Tolkien's main stories (the Hobbit, LOTR.)
Some of these books may be of great interest to you.
/edena

That was what I was referring to. I know all about the History of Middle-Earth I-XII. I merely asked you where you read about Galadriel aiding Eorl because I found it interesting and had not read about it before. The answers I expected were

a) no problem, it is somewhere in the History of Middle-Earth Volume 4 (or wherever). I don't remember the page, but I hope that helps!

b) to tell you the truth I don't remember exactly where I read it

but instead I got c) Why don't you go to the shelves in the bookstore? There's all these books there you should read.

Now admittedly, this may not have been intended to offend, but it most definitely meets the bill for 'pedantic'.

Anyway, no intention to clutter the thread anymore. Here is a hypothetical situation I wonder about:

What if Faramir had been sent to Rivendell instead of Boromir?

 

[Prince Atom]

Edena, I think you're too hard on Pippin.

By punished, I mean - WHACK! Pippin is out cold. When he awakens, his arms are bound and his mouth gagged - and he is to remain that way as long as the party is in Moria. Nobody speaks to him, and when he is ungagged to eat and drink, he loses teeth everytime he utters a word without permission.

So Pippin is tied up, ignored, treated like excess and unnecessary baggage, and generally intimidated... BY HIS FRIENDS! I don't think Frodo would have stood for this. I don't think Merry or Sam would have, either. Gandalf the Grey certainly wouldn't; for all he howls and yells, he doesn't wish them harm.

By your own arguments, Edena, if they treated Pippin like this then the Ring wins. If standing by and watching Gimli get shot down would increase the Ring's influence, then hog-tying and abusing Pippin certainly would, and it would shatter the company even faster.

At least Pippin now knows not to drop rocks down strange wells. And, IIRC, it was at least a day between the guard room and the assault in the crypt. So the rock starts the drummers, and they summon up all the orcs and the various dark things Boromir spies in the hall beyond. Where's your evidence that Pippin brought about the balrog? I contend that it is just as likely that the One Ring or the mere presence of Gandalf himself brought Durin's Bane to see what was going on.


And this is meta-story, but the whole Moria passage has to take place if we are to have Gandalf the White. Can you imagine, in the scope of LOTR, anything but the balrog doing harm to Gandalf? Orcs can't touch him; worgs can't touch him. That'd be anticlimactic. He needs something legendary to kill, and to kill him. If we don't get Gandalf the White, then there's no one to replace Saruman of Many Colors, and thus to illegitimize him.

As for your tactics of confusing and obfuscating the Ring's trail; you have some good ideas there. I don't think of Rivendell as being all that mighty. I don't know how many Elfs were there, but there can't have been too many. Maybe Elrond wanted to conserve his strength and make mustering easier if he had to muster.

But as for Frodo and Sam going alone... Who would have led them through Moria? They couldn't count on anyone going in, and so they probably wouldn't have. So... Gollum, who is lurking in Moria, never gloms onto Frodo, and is left behind. Then there's nobody to help them through Mordor, or in fact to resist Frodo when he finally caves in. The only person who could have destroyed the Ring is wallowing in Moria, strangling Orcs.

As for the strength of Elfs; frankly, I never thought of them as particularly tall or strong. They are described as tall when Frodo et al meet them in the Shire; but then the Elfs are described from a hobbit's point of view. Men are tall compared to hobbits. Plus, Elfs have always struck me as being slight things; they aren't totally in this world, and so there's not much physical mass to them. If Legolas is so strong, why are Aragorn and Boromir sent to clear the trail of snow on Caradhras? Why isn't he swinging a two-handed, ten-foot sword instead of that bow? I just don't understand where Elfs are so superior to Men that not only are they immortal, but they always win arm wrestling matches. Can you give me evidence of such strength, please?

TWK

 

[Brown Jenkin]

It doesn't show much in LOR but if you go to the Sillmarilion and look at the stories of the Elves in thier struggles against Melkor you will find Elves, some of who are still around like Galadrial, Celeborn, Gorfingal, and Elrond, who were able to fight and destroy both Balrogs and Dragons. Also at this time Men were almost as strong and were given thier own Kingdom. Over the years thier bloodline weakened considerably. Even so Aragon who is directly decended and only about half as strong as his ancestors is able to take on ringwraiths and inspire fear in the great Sauron. While they may not look fearful, all who knew of the stories knew that Elves, especialy those still around from the first age, were not things you wanted to mess with.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Speaking of Pippin...Aragorn and Gandalf both had to have known that Pippin was the heir to the Thane of the Shire, even if they never mentioned it. The Thane was given his title by one of Aragorn's ancestors, and was actually the rightful ruler of the last extant province of Arthedain, and in turn, Arnor. Given Aragorn's reverence for his heritage, I doubt very, very much that he would ever allow Pippin to be so treated. For that matter, I doubt Aragorn would ever condone such treatment of an orc. The Fellowship that would treat one of their own so would be a sick, twisted creation, and not worth talking about.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Not to mention how unlikely that a single dropped stone would attract all those goblins. You don't think that in a crumbling dwarven lair like Moria there was not the frequent sound of stonework giving way?

While the timing was bad I would say it is much more likely that Gollum warned the goblins of the Fellowships presence. He probably hoped the goblins would kill them all without noticing the ring which he could then claim.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yeah, I was too hard on Pippin.
You are all quite correct on that point!

And yes, the One Ring would have been greatly empowered by such dark behavior, and the Fellowship would have broken apart, first in spirit, then physically.

Not to mention that you are quite right about the refusal of the Fellowship to do such a thing:
Frodo would fight (with his sword) before allowing such behavior.
So would Merry.
Sam would gag at the idea of such treatment.
Gandalf would tell the Company to go rot, before he would tolerate such behavior.
Legolas and Gimli did not come off as being bad-hearted.
Boromir ... probably would not have done such a thing (the book Boromir, the FILM Boromir would have gagged at the thought.)
Aragorn, would not have allowed such a thing.

However ...

I do think the orcs of Moria had scouts in the western regions, listening for any noise.
I think Pippin's stone gave the Fellowship away.

That orc-ambush was too quick, too neatly set up.

First, there is the horn-call in the Upper Hall, obviously blown by advanced scouts.
The main ambush force is then heard, less than half a mile away.
They are fully armed and armored, have one or more cave trolls with them, and were obviously fully pre-prepared for battle (and it takes time to don arms and armor, even for orcs.)
The balrog is fully roused - it feels this is something important, or it wouldn't get involved - and comes from it's deep place to join in the attack about 15 minutes after the initial onslaught (it must have been a LONG ways away when the first horn call occurred.)
And those Drummers in the Deep started up even before the Horn Call.

The orcs somehow knew the Fellowship was there.
The orcs knew precisely where they were - in the Chamber of Mazarbul.
The orc scouts made a point of keeping quiet - so quiet that not even Legolas, and not even Frodo, heard them, although they were not that far off (once in the Hall.)
I must assume the main orc host had been on the march for at least several hours, guided by their scouts, to reach the Fellowship's location - which means orc-scouts knew the location several hours ahead, and they were not heard by Legolas or Frodo.

That level of attack, was too highly organized, too quick, and too massive, to be coincidental - something tipped off the orcs.

I do not think it was Gollum.

I think Pippin gave them away.

 

[Prince Atom]

That level of attack, was too highly organized, too quick, and too massive, to be coincidental - something tipped off the orcs.

You mean -- like JRR Tolkien?

Okay, I cede. Pippin tipped them off. But I think it was necessary, or at least inevitable. Something has to turn Gandalf the Grey into Gandalf the White. I'd be unsatisfied if it were anything less than the Balrog. Gandalf's supposed to be a major bad one, isn't he? No orc has a right to kill him.

Another thing equally as deadly and equally as necessary is Pippin's looking into the palantir. I don't think he was in his right mind when he did so. Sauron was definitely exerting some influence. But if Pippin hadn't looked, then would Aragorn have? Would Gandalf have taken Pippin with him to Gondor? I haven't read ROTK in forever -- I always seem to bog down in it.

Seriously, I don't think we can fuss at Pippin in particular. His actions advanced the plot in at least two instances.

And besides, if the heroes never do anything stupid, where's the tension? What sort of trouble would they get into if they didn't mess up?

Oh, and for the Elfs and such -- I don't know if it's physical strength. Glorfindel doesn't seem physically strong. He's just puissant, he has Stature (if I may borrow your phrase). Does Stature let you carry folks? I think they were able to combat the balrogs because they were metaphysically powerful.

TWK