A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[kahn_bloodbane]

This is the problem word here. This word should be "anything." A well prepared mage can do anything but NOT everything. Understanding the difference is key to understanding the underlying problem with the Tier System. A Sorcerer who is "optimized" to do a specific task (because that's what optimization means) is as one dimensional as a Fighter and no more flexible at changing that optimization from encounter to encounter. So ask yourself it that makes sense in terms of the tiering?

actually I really meant everything. a well prepared mage means it had time to prepare, and if someone is smart, (and the point of mages is being smart) they can do literally everything. you'd be surprised what minor magic items can do, also considering that mages CAN enchant them themselves.. you need attack bonus? easy there's an enchant (a +1 too) that gives bab like a cleric, you need strenght? you can do a spell, or make yourself a magic item, you want more power, there's tenser transformation, you want more strenght? you can polymorph yourself into a giant (and that really hurts..) need damage reduction? stoneskin.
I understand that if you think in terms of adventure... the mage eventually will end powers while the warrior will end at max hp, tho on the single encounter (and if you play smart you can reduce alot encounters) you can do alot..

And gods. Contact Other Plane specifically says that on rare occasions a diety or some othe force may block the use of the spell. Well guess who gets to decide when those rare occasions crop up? The higher you go, the more likely a demi-diety or demigod or diety or being from another plane may interfere with the use of reality altering spells.

rare occasions. as you said, rare should be rare as in.. once or twice in a campaign, a god would interfere with a rogue that kidnaps a baron daughter?.. why? it better has a really good reason, besides contact other plane doesn't necessarily ask to him, like you can ask to the god of justice as well, gods have limited omniscence around their temples, let's say the kidnapper is a follower of shar and shar doesn't like interference in her follower plans, if there's also a temple of tyr in town tyr knows everything too, and you can contact HIM and he's very eager to tell you everything for.. justice.
the higher you are the more you attract attention of gods sure, but doens't necessarily means gods will stop you doin what you want, simply because for as much as you wrong one god with a wish you make happy another, and they will eventually fight each other for that. IF a god interferes with your wish to save his follower, then, another opposed god can grant you a miracle to further his ends. Balance is something universal, it isn't there to 'nerf' powerful characters and neither to provide lazy dungeon masters with poor excuses to not give informations to players. if a player arrived to have a wish and properly words it, he's entitled to have such power.

The biggest thing is to educate oneself on what spells any given caster in a party has and what those spells can do. Once one becomes familiar with what spell casters can, designing challenges that they can't unwravel will be easier and easier.

the point isn't designing challenges they can't unravel like that you completely break the world balance, the point is simply to make happen things, you must prepare npcs give them appropriate ranks and knowledges and give them the best plan they can affond with their intelligence and resources. Then, the players will do their wrost. not every situation is meant to be a challenge, the more higher up a character goes the harder will be they find a true real challenge, an adventure can take a whole 10 minutes to finish in a well done world, the point is, is it really over? the one who did kidnap the baron daughter acted alone? was a small organization or a part of a larger, more complex whole? maybe the players acts with rush and kills the poor unfortunate things that angered a level 20 player that happened to pass by, but then they will be spied by the mighty secret organization who wanted the daughter of the baron kidnapped with an apparent randsom to more subtely manipulate him for political means? have someone offer his help in exchange of a favor, someone who used those bandits like tools for his dark church only to play the 'good friend' of the baron and get him vote in the feudal council like he wants, to change the balance of powers of the region and subtely gain power in a massive multi regional plot to cause a devastating war?
there, it goes up to the high level it needs.
would he prevent the heroes from squashing the poor 'smart' kidnapper of the baron daughter? absolutely not! it would mean expose his treachery! but he can befriend them, spy them, manipulate them, make them think he's the good guy and so on. only to, in the end frame them for the big mess of war he managed to start... either that or they are smart, take their time to get the kidnapper, do the right questions with the right divinations, maybe not find much but mistrust the 'good samaritan' maybe even letting him ally with them to then outsmart him foil his plans and denounce his evil acts to the world!

ok sorry I stop rambling.

 

[Arrowhawk]

actually I really meant everything. a well prepared mage means it had time to prepare, and if someone is smart, (and the point of mages is being smart) they can do literally everything. you'd be surprised what minor magic items can do, also considering that mages CAN enchant them themselves.. you need attack bonus? easy there's an enchant (a +1 too) that gives bab like a cleric, you need strenght? you can do a spell, or make yourself a magic item, you want more power, there's tenser transformation, you want more strenght? you can polymorph yourself into a giant (and that really hurts..) need damage reduction? stoneskin.
I understand that if you think in terms of adventure... the mage eventually will end powers while the warrior will end at max hp, tho on the single encounter (and if you play smart you can reduce alot encounters) you can do alot..





rare occasions. as you said, rare should be rare as in.. once or twice in a campaign, a god would interfere with a rogue that kidnaps a baron daughter?.. why? it better has a really good reason, besides contact other plane doesn't necessarily ask to him, like you can ask to the god of justice as well, gods have limited omniscence around their temples, let's say the kidnapper is a follower of shar and shar doesn't like interference in her follower plans, if there's also a temple of tyr in town tyr knows everything too, and you can contact HIM and he's very eager to tell you everything for.. justice.
the higher you are the more you attract attention of gods sure, but doens't necessarily means gods will stop you doin what you want, simply because for as much as you wrong one god with a wish you make happy another, and they will eventually fight each other for that. IF a god interferes with your wish to save his follower, then, another opposed god can grant you a miracle to further his ends. Balance is something universal, it isn't there to 'nerf' powerful characters and neither to provide lazy dungeon masters with poor excuses to not give informations to players. if a player arrived to have a wish and properly words it, he's entitled to have such power.



the point isn't designing challenges they can't unravel like that you completely break the world balance, the point is simply to make happen things, you must prepare npcs give them appropriate ranks and knowledges and give them the best plan they can affond with their intelligence and resources. Then, the players will do their wrost. not every situation is meant to be a challenge, the more higher up a character goes the harder will be they find a true real challenge, an adventure can take a whole 10 minutes to finish in a well done world, the point is, is it really over? the one who did kidnap the baron daughter acted alone? was a small organization or a part of a larger, more complex whole? maybe the players acts with rush and kills the poor unfortunate things that angered a level 20 player that happened to pass by, but then they will be spied by the mighty secret organization who wanted the daughter of the baron kidnapped with an apparent randsom to more subtely manipulate him for political means? have someone offer his help in exchange of a favor, someone who used those bandits like tools for his dark church only to play the 'good friend' of the baron and get him vote in the feudal council like he wants, to change the balance of powers of the region and subtely gain power in a massive multi regional plot to cause a devastating war?
there, it goes up to the high level it needs.
would he prevent the heroes from squashing the poor 'smart' kidnapper of the baron daughter? absolutely not! it would mean expose his treachery! but he can befriend them, spy them, manipulate them, make them think he's the good guy and so on. only to, in the end frame them for the big mess of war he managed to start... either that or they are smart, take their time to get the kidnapper, do the right questions with the right divinations, maybe not find much but mistrust the 'good samaritan' maybe even letting him ally with them to then outsmart him foil his plans and denounce his evil acts to the world!

ok sorry I stop rambling.

I wouldn't consider kidnapping a baron's daughter..."reality altering." So I'm not sure why you are telling me a god wouldn't interfere with it? I never said or suggested a god would. And as far as the motivation of Gods...who says they operate like you and me? Gods are whimsical and do whatever they want...sometimes even violating their own alignment restrctions. God's are not obligated to answer to mortals. Immortal beings are beyond the comprehension of mortal beings. Just read the Bible if you don't believe me. We only know what Gods want us to know.

A Wizard can't do everything between "encounters." A Wizard has to pick spells ahead of time. Most DM's don't tell the Wizard eveything the party is going to encounter, so the Wizard is going to have to guess at what spells will be needed. This limits the Wizards options in terms of doing "everything." Wizards don't get THAT many spells between levels 6-10. They simply can't do everything that needs doine from start to finish. If they can, then you really need to consider adding more than a few encounters between rest periods and not telegraphing what you're going to throw at the party.

And the point I'm making is about breaking reality. That is the basis of Tier 1 characters. Jaronk will tell you a Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Erudite, etc... will break reality...he doesn't say at what level they can do it...he just throws it out there like they can do it from levels 6-15...which they can't. You can't make Tier 1 without the class ability to break reality. You start messing with the fabric of reality and I'll give you odds that God(s) will interfere if he/she/it/they exist.

 

[kahn_bloodbane]

with that you assume there is only ONE god that decides everthing. whych in most cases in D&D isn't. there's more than one god, one is whysmical others are not, some violates their own alignment, others will NEVER EVER, penality losing their god status.
there's rules for gods, entire manuals, descriptions on them, finely woven, to create balance in the world, not excuses to not answer players enquiries. they can be beyond comprernsion of mortal beings sure but not beyond DM comprehension and if a god of justice doesn't allow find an evildoer the dm better have a VERY convincing story to justify that. the dm must be IMPARTIAL (or at least that's how I am) both toward the players and npcs treating them the same way.
about "don't get THAT many spells" do you know how much costs to make a 1st level spell castable AT WILL at caster level 1 on a simple wonderous item?
2000 gold. plus 1/25 of that in xp. actual cost of the mage tho is half that
and 2 days of work.
oh wow I got an item that does 1d4+1 dmg usable at will! (of course I can think more useful ones!)
the math to do such items is spell level x caster level x2000 gp so a level 2 spell at will is 2x3x2000 = 12000 gp, but still it's at will... 12 days 6000 gp spent and 480 xp. and you get a caster level 3 level 2 spell AT WILL. not hard isn't it? like that, you can be ready for anything at any time.
this without counting magic items you find of course.

I don't agree wirth your "If they can, then you really need to consider adding more than a few encounters between rest periods and not telegraphing what you're going to throw at the party." that's wrong... I am the dm, if the players encounters something is not because I throw them something to them, but because that something is going to go there at that time and casually finds them. plus.. please.. random encoutners? seriously?.. rope trick (second level spell player's handbook) completely makes useless any "night encounter".. we are a little grown up to still roll dices for random encounters come on, roleplaying games did develop ALOT since "against the giants" module.

mess with the fabric of reality hmm let's see level 15 limited wish, yeah it works, you can do that, if the dm has particular problems with that spell.. well just remove it from game and say the gods doens't allow it to work. or make sure that in the 25 words you need to phrase the wish there's no loophole to give funny results "I wish for a magical sword +5" and 6 random magical swords appears! XD
limited wish is used and been used by long, if you don't want to deal with it.. ok.
anyway there's classes that alters reality a certain kind of mage from tome and blood fatespinner maybe? anyway he changes odds to accumulate spin to then change odds again afterwards.. that is defined alter reality.
maybe he meant in a loose way of altering the fabric of reality (aka simply weaving magic.)

 

[Meatboy]

Here's a quick fix for balancing fighters and caster. Play a low level campaign. DnD is meant to emulate high fantasy which is demons, dragons and magic swords. If you want lord of the rings or some other low or gritty fantasy where magic is small and subtle then play and set all your adventures at low levels.
Also if as a DM you throw magical opponents at the PCs be prepared for them to GTFO, cue the Balrog scene, because magic is specifically needed to counter magic in DnD.

 

[Jacob Marley]

plus.. please.. random encoutners? seriously?.. rope trick (second level spell player's handbook) completely makes useless any "night encounter".. we are a little grown up to still roll dices for random encounters come on, roleplaying games did develop ALOT since "against the giants" module.

First, the duration of Rope Trick is only an hour per level. In order to get full effects of a night's rest, the caster must have a caster level of at least 9th level (8th depending on the DM); or be 5th level and have the Extend Spell feat; or have a caster level of 5th (4th) level and have a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend; or be 3rd level and have Heward's Fortifying Bedroll. The Extend Spell feat requires a character design decision -- albeit, a very good one -- to make work. The Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend and Heward's Fortifying Bedroll options each require a magic item that may or may not be found. Rope Trick doesn't just work, it needs design and play decisions to make work and those decisions come with opportunity costs.

Second, while it is true that RPG theory and design has improved over the years, so too has the theory and methodology in using random encounters. If you get a chance, read some of The Shaman's posts about his use of random encounters in his game of Flashing Blades! At the very least, random encounters can break DM tendencies while providing the game with an element of the unknown.

Third, (and this is not directed specifically at your post) how powerful one character is opposed to how powerful another is exists in two states: the theoretical (or potential) and the actual. For some, the theoretical and the actual will be quite close; for others, the difference can be monumental. These differences are the result of player skill at design, player skill during play, and player style, modified by the skill level of the other players and of the style and skill of the DM. In my opinion, these factors have a greater effect on the relative power levels of the various characters than does the inherent imbalances suggested by the Tier System. That is to say, an inherently powerful class, played by a player with a low skill level will often be less powerful than an inherently weak class played by a higher skilled player.

Fourth, individuals are willing to accept differing levels of imbalance in their games. Personally, I find the game most enjoyable with classes that range from Tier 2 to Tier 4. I can accept that level of imbalance more so than the imbalance that exists between Tiers 1 & 4 or Tiers 2 & 5.

 

[Arrowhawk]

with that you assume there is only ONE god that decides everthing.

Where did I every say or assume there was only one god?

entire manuals, descriptions on them, finely woven, to create balance in the world, not excuses to not answer players enquiries.

The only gods who are interested in balance are the NEUTRAL gods. Everyone else is trying to tip the scales in their favor. God's don't need excuses to do what they want. They don't answer to the player characters' sense of what those gods should be involved in.

the dm better have a VERY convincing story to justify that.

There's a whole lot of stuff that goes on per the source books that is not convincing. So good luck on people agreeing on that. I believe what you are trying to convey is that the DM cannot be abitrary. Players have to beleive that if they do the same thing...they'll get the same result. That is not the same as being "IMPARTIAL."

the dm must be IMPARTIAL (or at least that's how I am) both toward the players and npcs treating them the same way.

I think you're using the wrong word here. "IMPARTIAL" would imply that you do not consider the PC's when creating world. An "IMPARTIAL" DM would allow 1st level characters to walk into and be killed by a 5th level dungeon. A DM's job is to be 100% partial. You are charged with making the game fun for all players. That means presenting them with a world that has just the right amount of challenge. That is partiality. When your PC's foil some noble bad guy, you don't have the high ranking noble call in some Mind Flayer Assassin and wipe out the party do you? Even when the noble could totally afford to do it?

about "don't get THAT many spells" do you know how much costs to make a 1st level spell castable AT WILL at caster level 1 on a simple wonderous item?

I tell you what. You take all the 1st level scrolls you want into the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (lvl 9-12) and we'll see how far you get. You can give a Fighter unlimited 1st level spells and I doubt that would even move him up a Tier. 1d4+1 against a pack of Gnolls? How many 1st level Magic Missles do you think you'd get off before they tore your 5th level Wizard into tattered ribbons?

JaronK requires that you change the very fabric of reality to be Tier 1. 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spells aren't going to do it.

I don't agree wirth your "If they can, then you really need to consider adding more than a few encounters between rest periods and not telegraphing what you're going to throw at the party." that's wrong...

That is your perrogative. But I agree with Jacob. If you think random encounters are for children DM's, then you're denying yourself a very useful tool in making the game challenging for the players and balancing out spell casters within a group.

mess with the fabric of reality hmm let's see level 15 limited wish,

A Limited Wish is hardly game breaking. It's limited to effects of 6th level spells and lower. I don't even think it can permenantly raise ability scores.

maybe he meant in a loose way of altering the fabric of reality (aka simply weaving magic.)

Well, the examples he throws out are like destroying the world of Toril, or destroying entire planes, or making invincible armies, or binding Efreeti and getting Wish Loops, or using Love's Pain and killing someone on another plane and they don't get any saving throw or spell resitence. And if you can do ALL those things...not just one of them, then you're Tier 1.

 

[kitcik]

You can give a Fighter unlimited 1st level spells and I doubt that would even move him up a Tier.

Shall I design a 10th level fighter (non Dungeoncrasher) with unlimited first level spells, while you create a 10th level Tier 4 character of your choice?

Hint: I will not be casting Magic Missile...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Okay, damn message board cut off my XP comment. It was supposed to read:

"I assume True Strike will be one of the first spells on that list? "

 

[kahn_bloodbane]

probably you heard this in different context but... it's not how big it is, it's how you use it.
truest me, few level 1 spells used well can change the whole asset of the so called.. 'balance' I talk from personal experience XD

 

[Dandu]

Okay, damn message board cut off my XP comment. It was supposed to read:

"I assume True Strike will be one of the first spells on that list? "

Enlarge Person would be nice as well.

Haste too... which is a first level spell on the Trapsmith prestige class' spell list.