A solution for multiclass spellcasters? (without PrCs)

[pyk]

Reasonably, multiclass characters do not get full benefits of any class they don't go the full 20 in. And they shouldn't. You want the benefits of a full 20 levels, then stay single class.

 

[Red Baron]

I'm just curious: Mordane, have you played in any high-level games with someone who tried to run a multi Ftr/Wiz split or anything similar? (And have you played 1st and/or 2nd ed. AD&D, or is 3E your first version?)

I don't mean those questions to be belittling in any way, I'm just curious. The answers would probably elucidate your point of view in this matter.

 

[Mordane76]

I played some 2nd Edition.
I have played 3E about three times, because I DM it almost exclusively since it came out.

Right now, in my game, we have a Exp/Ftr/Clr build which is doing pretty well, and a Rog/Wiz build that is doing well, and a Rgr/Sor/ArA build that is doing very well also -- however, none of these people split even down the middle in their classes.


I played a Nec/Clr/Ftr who was even split as a 12th level character (so 4/4/4). I was not upset with my ability to do things, nor was I upset that other people who had straight classed had talents I didn't -- it was my choice. I was good at what I did; I hunted undead -- I used spells that accentuated my combat abilities (like True Strike and Launch Bolt from FR), and used my Necro spells and other death spells to do what necromancers do best -- scare people and harm people with gentle applications of negative energy. I was also fairly handy in combat... but not the best.

 

[Red Baron]

I see. I think maybe what we're seeing here is a discrepancy between folks who are used to seeing/playing elf fighter/wizards (or something similar) from AD&D, when, at average party level 15th, the Ftr/Wiz was about 13th/12th or maybe even 14th/12th or so. I'd say most who played back then might agree that multiclass demihuman fighter/spellcaster mixes were the way to go, hands down. I can't remember anyone ever playing a straight fighter at upper levels, and nobody wanted the wizard below 5th, either.

Anyway, my point is this: those old-time multiclass mixes were a little too strong at times, since they overshadowed the straight classes most of the time (except a high-level straight wizard in AD&D, which ruled the roost, IMO). Now, I'm seeing the opposite problem: multiclass Ftr/Wiz types are severely limited in effectiveness, to the point where nobody I know is willing to play one. This problem is nearly fixed, I'd say, with the advent of the mystic theurge and the eldritch knight (the solution isn't perfect, granted, but it is a decent one).

I guess I'm really just trying to identify people's biases, and to throw a little light (maybe?) on the subject. In 3E, in my most recent experience, the 18th-level wizard and the 18th-level fighter both easily outshone the Ftr8/Sor10 and the Bbn7/Clr3/hunter of the dead 8, to the extent that the multiclass characters' players were ready to quit the campaign out of boredom and frustration. We just had to roll up new characters and start from scratch, and I can assure you that I will be advocating, if not forcing the issue of the gnome Ftr/Ill taking levels in spellsword and/or eldritch knight when he is high enough level, so he can compete fairly (and "funly") with the others...

Edit: Spelling.

 

[Mordane76]

I remember the days of demi-human dual-classing from 2E.
I remember how powerful these characters were, and how different the rules are now. I played a demi-human in 2E -- and I prefer the rules as they are now. I feel the rules now promote a more creative role-playing experience; one has to figure out how to use one's abilities, regardless of how "powerful" one is compared to other characters of equivalent level. By the rules, you're just as powerful, but you've spread yourself differently; in some situations, you'll be better equipped to handle yourself than other characters.


Now, if you've multi-classed into classes that other characters already possessed straight-classed, then... you're not going to be as "powerful" comparatively. But, if you multi-class into something that isn't readily available in the party, and then take a unique PrC when you're able, you should be just fine, IMO.


The rule changes from 2E to 3E were overall good changes. I feel they balanced a lot of things out, and made some characters much more useful at higher levels, especially when compared to other characters of different classes of equivalent levels. Some of the changes from 3E to 3.5E are good, but some are not. The resurgence of the very demihuman-esqe power combos in the form of the Mystic Theurge and the Eldritch Knight are not good IMO; they promote an ideal of gaming that is very unbalanced -- it makes certain combinations obviously more powerful than others, without any real drawbacks to that power. Then again, WotC seems to be instituting a very tangible degree of power creep, especially when looking at some of the previews from the Miniatures Handbook (namely the War Hulk), so perhaps I'm just behind the power curve or falling behind in the arms race...

 

[Scion]

power combos in the form of the Mystic Theurge and the Eldritch Knight are not good IMO; they promote an ideal of gaming that is very unbalanced -- it makes certain combinations obviously more powerful than others, without any real drawbacks to that power. Then again, WotC seems to be instituting a very tangible degree of power creep, especially when looking at some of the previews from the Miniatures Handbook (namely the War Hulk), so perhaps I'm just behind the power curve or falling behind in the arms race...

Other than loss of familiar, hp (compared to straight cleric), feats, domain powers and turning ability? Probably other things as well, but those are some definate hits. The hulk gets no bab, that is also a big hit.

Just depends on how you look at it and where you are counting from

 

[Xiryc]

Other than loss of familiar, hp (compared to straight cleric), feats, domain powers and turning ability? Probably other things as well, but those are some definate hits. The hulk gets no bab, that is also a big hit.

Just depends on how you look at it and where you are counting from

You don't lose your familiar, or your domain powers.

I wouldn't allow this to count toward multiclasses of the same magic type. Sor10/Wiz10 would cast as Sor18/Wiz18. That's totally unfair to a Wiz20 or Sor20. Double the spells, in exchange for losing a few Wizard feats? Sign me up!

I personally wouldn't do this in my game. Prestige Classing for it is perfectly fair. If your spending all your time learning all these spells, when would you find time to practice other things?

Also, Arcane and Divine spells are two very different things. One you control through practice, the other a god gives you because of you prayed in the morning.

Okay, that's enough from me. Your formula gives way too much to the Wiz/Sor combo, but it seems fair for a Wiz/Clr. If I were to allow it, I would require one of the cleric's domains to be Magic, but that's just me.

 

[Scion]

You don't lose your familiar, or your domain powers.

Should've been more specific I see. You still have the familiar, but it misses out on a lot of its abilities, which are why it is useful at higher levels. Without the extra natural armor, intelligence, and survival abilities it just isnt nearly as good and that has to be said somewhere. I guess I just find being able to talk with my familar a good thing ::shrugs:: These two arent the major losses, I was just listing them for completeness. I've already stated where and how the power level is dropped, and others have posted the same.

A very large number of domain powers are based on cleric level. So your death domain power is pretty much useless except to scare kobolds, and even they might survive it.

You are probably right about the 18/18 being a bit too much, probably needs to finish around 16/16. In order to keep them from getting 9th level spell slots.

 

[Mordane76]

Other than loss of familiar, hp (compared to straight cleric), feats, domain powers and turning ability? Probably other things as well, but those are some definate hits. The hulk gets no bab, that is also a big hit.

Just depends on how you look at it and where you are counting from

But the Wiz/Clr gains HP (compared to straight wizard), BAB (compared to straight wizard), divine spells (with their healing punch) and domain powers (which he wouldn't have otherwise). We'll go round like this forever.

And the Hulk gets +2 Str per level... that's a +1 to hit AND to damage every level. I think that more than makes up for the character's lack of BAB.

 

[Mordane76]

A very large number of domain powers are based on cleric level. So your death domain power is pretty much useless except to scare kobolds, and even they might survive it.

You are probably right about the 18/18 being a bit too much, probably needs to finish around 16/16. In order to keep them from getting 9th level spell slots.

Well... if you want the clerical powers to increase... then take more levels of cleric than Wizard -- Problem solved!

As for the Sor10/Wiz10 = Sor18/Wiz18 thing... I'm glad you see SOME of the problem with that. Still, I can't believe someone would advocate such blatant increases in power, and I'm still stunned that WotC did it themselves with MT, considering many of the changes they made to spells in general (which overall, IMO, created a general powering-down of spellcasters). It's sort of dubious -- "We're going to weaken spellcasters in general through modifications their spells, but we're going to allow them to take this nifty PrC that stacks up Wiz/Clr levels such that you'll be a powerhouse in both, so the changes we made to the spells don't really matter."