D&D 5E A spell to break the concentration limits - help me break the game

[Stalker0]

So in the 1dnd forum, we are discussing a change idea to the Sorcerous Incarnate spell (one possible new sorc ability).

In quick summary: Its a bonus action 5th level spell that takes concentration and lasts up to a minute. The idea we are discussing is this:

• Spells you cast while under this effect do not require concentration. When the spell ends, any concentration spell that is active immediately ends.

So in a nutshell:

• 1st round, you cast this spell (its a bonus action spell, so you can lob a cantrip but nothing else)
• rounds 2-10 you have no limits to other concentration effects. you can stack as many of them as you want.
• When the spell ends (either it was dispelled, the minute is up, or you lose concentration on the main spell), all other concentration spells immediately stop.

So in effect, you can create an interesting and short duration nova effect.

So obviously breaking concentration is a big deal....but how big is it? So this thread is to reach out to the powergamers here. Try to break this, what combos of concentration spells could you see that would cause a DM's jaw to drop?

A reminder that its a 5th level spell, so its a 9th level sorc minimum. Also in 1dnd a sorc has access to all wizard spells, so that could be a factor. Feel free to do high level sorcs or 9th level sorc + some other multiclass, whatever you think would break the bank.

 

[Stormonu]

With this being a 5th level spell kicking in at 10th level, relaxing concentration is a little less worrisome. I wouldn’t blow it wide open, but a 5th level spell that lasts for 10 minutes (not consuming concentration itself) to give you an extra concentration slot should be possible, though personally I’d use other methods to allow extra concentration (feat, 10th/11th level class ability, possibly magic item). I’d probably not go past 3 Concentration spell stacks deep for anyone. Be aware this is an ability that enemies would possibly have access to, and with ~4 players and an equal amount of enemies, multiple effects all active at once could get potentially mentally draining to track.

Concentration became a game mechanic in the first place because of the abuses (and slowing the game) that stacking spells allowed - Bless + Haste + Invisibility + Fly + Cube of Force, etc. It became very easy for casters to lock down enemies and buff themselves (and the party) in such a fashion that it got out of control. And of course, with so many buffs and conditions flying around, players (and most especially DMs who were tracking ALL the players and ALL the monster’s buffs) could easily lose track of some details of what was going on. More so than anything, Concentration is in place to keep the DM from going mad. It’s probably too tight as is - especially for higher level play where everyone’s a bit more experienced and used to tracking several things at one.

 

[jgsugden]

Two scenarios:

1.) They cast it in the first round of combat, effectively taking away the chance to cast a meaningful spell in favor of a cantrip. 2nd round they can cast a meaningful spell, where as if they had cast a concentration offensive or defensive spell in rd 1, they would be limited to a non-concentration spell. So, we're effectively saying that in rd 2, they're still at a disadvantage because they have cast a cantrip and a "good concentration spell", as opposed to a "good concentration spell and a non-concentration spell". In Rd 3 they can have two concentration spells up - but at that point most combats are effectively headed to an end.

2.) They cast this before combat and buff up with concentration defense/utility spells before combat. They enter the combat with a huge advantage. Walking into a combat with conctration 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th level spells couls be huge.

Personally, I allow spellcasters to gain access to a way that allows them to concetrate on multiple spells. If they find it, they get 1 concentration point per ever 2 spell levels they can cast (rounded up), and a concetration spell costs 1 per spell level plus an additional 1 for evey spell you're already concetrating upon. Thus, a 9th level caster has 5 concetration points which they can use on a 5th level spell, two 2nd level spells, a 3rd and a 1st, or three 1st level spells. It has not broken anything. Multiple concentration is fine - but the additional spell needs to be limited in power.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

So obviously breaking concentration is a big deal....but how big is it? So this thread is to reach out to the powergamers here. Try to break this, what combos of concentration spells could you see that would cause a DM's jaw to drop?

The three scenarios that spring to mind when people start allowing multiple concentration are:

• Cloudkill + Wall of Stone (or Force, if people are talking wizards as well) pretty much would create a killing zone that would be very hard to escape
• Fly + Greater Invisibility would enable the caster to pretty much fight with impunity from range
• Greater Invisibility in general makes it much harder to break concentration on a spell

 

[ECMO3]

So in the 1dnd forum, we are discussing a change idea to the Sorcerous Incarnate spell (one possible new sorc ability).

In quick summary: Its a bonus action 5th level spell that takes concentration and lasts up to a minute. The idea we are discussing is this:

• Spells you cast while under this effect do not require concentration. When the spell ends, any concentration spell that is active immediately ends.

So in a nutshell:

• 1st round, you cast this spell (its a bonus action spell, so you can lob a cantrip but nothing else)
• rounds 2-10 you have no limits to other concentration effects. you can stack as many of them as you want.
• When the spell ends (either it was dispelled, the minute is up, or you lose concentration on the main spell), all other concentration spells immediately stop.

So in effect, you can create an interesting and short duration nova effect.

So obviously breaking concentration is a big deal....but how big is it? So this thread is to reach out to the powergamers here. Try to break this, what combos of concentration spells could you see that would cause a DM's jaw to drop?

A reminder that its a 5th level spell, so its a 9th level sorc minimum. Also in 1dnd a sorc has access to all wizard spells, so that could be a factor. Feel free to do high level sorcs or 9th level sorc + some other multiclass, whatever you think would break the bank.

So I have only seen concentration exceptions in play on one spell and that is Summon Fey on a Fey Wanderer Ranger. When that happens, even with that one spell only and only on an 11th level half caster it is EXTREMELY powerful. I have seen in play a Ranger several turns into a battle dumping out 5 attacks and 3 Charm Monsters every single turn. In play that character can eclipse a full caster in control.

Given that experience with this one otherwise relatively mediocre spell on a half caster; I would argue that this would be extremely OP if you allowed any spell on a full caster.

 

[Stalker0]

The three scenarios that spring to mind when people start allowing multiple concentration are:

• Cloudkill + Wall of Stone (or Force, if people are talking wizards as well) pretty much would create a killing zone that would be very hard to escape
• Fly + Greater Invisibility would enable the caster to pretty much fight with impunity from range
• Greater Invisibility in general makes it much harder to break concentration on a spell

Alright lets dig a bit deeper.

So the sorc casts cloud kill, and then assuming the enemy stays in the area, they cast wall of stone.

Ok so we are talking 9 "hits" of cloud kill. Lets assume a 30% chance to save (its a con save afterall which tends to be easy to make for a lot of creatures) but we will say this sorc is baller so only a 30% chance to save. Over 9 rounds that's 129.6 poison damage, about the equivalent of 4.77 fireballs (assuming the same save rate).

Ok so we got 3 5th level spells doing 129.6 ~= 4.77 fireballs (3rd level spells). Alright that's a metric point.


Fly + Greater Invis: So a 5th, 4th, and 3rd level spell.... gives us high mobility and a lot of intrinsic defensive benefits for up to 7 rounds (though that's assuming we are casting in combat or right before combat).

 

[Stalker0]

So I have only seen concentration exceptions in play on one spell and that is Summon Fey on a Fey Wanderer Ranger. When that happens, even with that one spell only and only on an 11th level half caster it is EXTREMELY powerful. I have seen in play a Ranger several turns into a battle dumping out 5 attacks and 3 Charm Monsters every single turn. In play that character can eclipse a full caster in control.

Given that experience with this one otherwise relatively mediocre spell on a half caster; I would argue that this would be extremely OP if you allowed any spell on a full caster.

Alright lets take a look!

So not that summon fey does not give you "charm monster", not quite. You can do a charm effect but the creature is not "friendly towards you", its simply unable to attack you. Might be a subtle difference in combat but you aren't going to talk the monster into attacking its friends, etc.

Alright, so yeah lets see what several castings in a row of this spell can do.

If I assume 2 castings of the spell, so we have 7 rounds left, using 1 5th and 2 3rd level slots. Our summons can dish out about 13 damage on a hit (assuming 70% hit chance that's 9.1 damage roughly, so 18.2 with both of them). Then we get a chance to charm. The charm is pretty nice because it lasts for 1 minute, so even if the fey do go away it lingers on. Its also at-will. We could argue is this defensive bonus really better than say, putting yourself in a resilient sphere, and then using effects that can go outside of the sphere? (like a more damaging summon as an example). Maybe maybe not, the sphere is more assured but also less flexible. We could argue though that a single 4th level spell like resilient sphere can give us similar "super defense" versus an enemy.

What do people think, does this break the bank?

 

[ECMO3]

Alright lets take a look!

So not that summon fey does not give you "charm monster", not quite. You can do a charm effect but the creature is not "friendly towards you", its simply unable to attack you. Might be a subtle difference in combat but you aren't going to talk the monster into attacking its friends, etc.

It is actually better in combat than Charm Monster because the target does not get advantage on the save and it is done on a bonus action.

You are not generally going to talk the monster into attacking its friends but the deal here is the volume of control with each Fey getting an action AND the ability to charm an enemy every single turn for the cost of a 3rd level slot.

If I assume 2 castings of the spell, so we have 7 rounds left, using 1 5th and 2 3rd level slots. Our summons can dish out about 13 damage on a hit (assuming 70% hit chance that's 9.1 damage roughly, so 18.2 with both of them). Then we get a chance to charm. The charm is pretty nice because it lasts for 1 minute, so even if the fey do go away it lingers on. Its also at-will.

The damage is not that relevant, the actions along with a charm are which brings a ton of control. 7 rounds is 14 chances to charm an enemy and 14 actions in addition to the action the caster is getting every round and that is if you stop at 2.

We could argue is this defensive bonus really better than say, putting yourself in a resilient sphere, and then using effects that can go outside of the sphere?

Yes because it takes away enemy actions. They can't attack the fey, they can't attack the caster. If you are fighting a boss this means you can use your action to attack him or cast a spell on him or whatever and then he needs to pass 2 successive charms every single turn. And the Fey get to surround him, grapple him, block him whatever, they get opportinuty attacks too (although that can break the charm).


Why stop at 2? Keep putting them out over and over and your action economy goes up every turn.

We could argue though that a single 4th level spell like resilient sphere can give us similar "super defense" versus an enemy.

I am not sure what you are saying. If you are suggesting multiple spheres on successive rounds to capture mulitple enemies concentration-free, then yes I think that will be just as OP.

If you are suggesting casting the sphere on yourself I don't see how that helps the party, putting extra allies on the battlefield with extra actions (and in this case awesome bonus actions) helps a lot.

What do people think, does this break the bank?

I am not using Summon Fey as a whiteroom example, I am using it as an example I have witnessed in play in tier 4 with what is generally a mediocre low level spell being used by a half caster.

This combo can be extremely powerful in that situation. If you expand this to any spell by a full caster it will undoubtedly be MUCH more powerful and IMO will break the bank easily.
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If you want to power build the lower level concentration spells are what is going to be a killer here. Spells like Fear, Cause Fear, suggestion. These spells already put out a ton of control and are useful all the way to 20th level and you have enough slots to cast them many times a day when you get to high level. Heck at 20th level you could cast Suggestion, Fear or Hypnotic Pattern every single turn of Combat without ever using more than one 5th level slot and targets do not get to save every turn against those spells (Fear does eventually, but only after you are out of sight).

 

[MarkB]

It is actually better in combat than Charm Monster because the target does not get advantage on the save and it is done on a bonus action.

You are not generally going to talk the monster into attacking its friends but the deal here is the volume of control with each Fey getting an action AND the ability to charm an enemy every single turn for the cost of a 3rd level slot.

What's the benefit of charming all those enemies though? They can't attack the fey that charmed them, or the caster that summoned the fey, but that still leaves them free to attack anyone else - and the moment they take any damage the charm is gone. The secondary effect of the charm - advantage on checks to interact socially with the target - is unlikely to come up in combat.

 

[the Jester]

I just want to throw out that I value concentration highly enough that I think a 5th level bonus action spell that lets you avoid concentration for 10 minutes is very overpowered. So obviously, I am interested in seeing what people come up with here.

For the record, here's my version of a concentration-breaker from my campaign.

Ultimate Concentration
8th-level abjuration (bard, cleric, druid, wizard)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 hour

While this spell persists, you gain a +10 bonus to saving throws and checks made to maintain your concentration. In addition, you can maintain concentration on two spells at once.
At Higher Levels: If you cast this spell using a 9th level slot, you can maintain concentration on three spells at once.