We could follow up this example. Suppose instead there is some context and the player says 'Cool. Can I hear anyone snoring?'Moving on: suppose the GM provides a context, and a player says "Cool, I do [= my character will attempt to do] such-and-such".
In the Burning Wheel context, my first question (as a spectator) is "What Belief is implicated in the current situation?"I could talk some about Burning Wheel, and how that might also be handled. But i think the differentiation here is sufficient for now.
I'm really not sure what 3 is supposed to mean - what does a linkage between fictional positioning and regulatory and constitutive rules mean? What's an example of such a linkage?I very much agree with you about that. Hence my emphasis on having in mind fictional positioning as the relevant (and distinct) technical feature of RPG. The way in which fiction in RPG is unlike fiction in other games. Update then to -
- ongoing authorship of common fiction, through a continuous process of drafting and revising, that all participate in
- regulatory and constitutive rules
- a linkage from fictional position (and thus the fiction) to the regulatory and constitutive rules
It's a reference out to the background discussion of "fictional positioning" which you can find on Vincent Baker's preserved Anyway archive (follow the links from the 1st block "Dice and Clouds" and the 4th block "Positioning Real & Fictional".)I'm really not sure what 3 is supposed to mean - what does a linkage between fictional positioning and regulatory and constitutive rules mean? What's an example of such a linkage?
Perhaps its 2. regulatory and constitutive rules for updating the fictional positioning?
Whether it is or not, they can and do. So that's mystifying...@chaochou is it even POSSIBLE for a player to ask "Do I hear snoring?" in classic D&D?
In the Burning Wheel context, my first question (as a spectator) is "What Belief is implicated in the current situation?"
As GM, I should already know the answer to that, as I've framed a situation to put pressure, or at least to meaningfully speak to, a Belief.
Is it even POSSIBLE for a player to ask "Do I hear snoring?" in classic D&D?
I think @AbdulAlhazred's suggestion was that the GM interprets it as a declaration that "I listen" and responds to that. I think what he had in mind is that the player has no real authority or capacity to make snoring salient as opposed to any other sort of noise.It's an interesting question! How does one stop a player asking? Does the GM say 'You're not allowed to ask that."
I agree on that and it is worth pointing out. I was thinking of my own typical experience in DMing D&D. Even where adopting a heavily DM-curated stance, players say and ask things all the time that put me on the spot to say whether X is true (X being something I might not have even considered prior to that moment.) For that reason, part of what @AbdulAlhazred wrote did not seem right to me.I think @AbdulAlhazred's suggestion was that the GM interprets it as a declaration that "I listen" and responds to that. I think what he had in mind is that the player has no real authority or capacity to make snoring salient as opposed to any other sort of noise.
I think @AbdulAlhazred's suggestion was that the GM interprets it as a declaration that "I listen" and responds to that. I think what he had in mind is that the player has no real authority or capacity to make snoring salient as opposed to any other sort of noise.
My emphasis, obvs. I'm just chiming in that for me that's one of the most interesting spaces in RPG play. When it's not the players making things salient or manifesting things into existence, and it's outside the scope of GM prep and their immediate authority. I think that's where a lot of the good quantum foam in any given session comes from.I don't know if this is interesting, or a dead end! However, experience is that when a game is run using what I outlined as 'the traditional method' the players will ask all kinds of questions which defy either documentation or any procedural method of determination. Is the doorframe made of oak? Do the cooking utensils we found have maker's marks? Can I find pine cones here?
I agree that in such a style the player has no authority to make these things salient. The problem is that the GM can't prevent such enquiries in games built around learning the GMs conception of the fiction. It's a breakpoint in the authority structure.
Interesting! Could you elaborate and/or give an example? What falls outside of the scope of all that? I'm particularly curious about the "immediate" in GM's "immediate authority".My emphasis, obvs. I'm just chiming in that for me that's one of the most interesting spaces in RPG play. When it's not the players making things salient or manifesting things into existence, and it's outside the scope of GM prep and their immediate authority. I think that's where a lot of the good quantum foam in any given session comes from.
I'm not sure how to map the limits of this kind of "soft" player inquiry/declaration, but it definitely maps to my experience of play. Arguably this is a question of clarity, not introducing new elements to the fiction, creation requires detail be explicated from existing fictional elements.I don't know if this is interesting, or a dead end! However, experience is that when a game is run using what I outlined as 'the traditional method' the players will ask all kinds of questions which defy either documentation or any procedural method of determination. Is the doorframe made of oak? Do the cooking utensils we found have maker's marks? Can I find pine cones here?
I agree that in such a style the player has no authority to make these things salient. The problem is that the GM can't prevent such enquiries in games built around learning the GMs conception of the fiction. It's a breakpoint in the authority structure.
Well, for quantum foam I really mean to use the technical term "awesomesauce", or perhaps "world lubricant", but that sounds odd. Don't call it that.Interesting! Could you elaborate and/or give an example? What falls outside of the scope of all that? I'm particularly curious about the "immediate" in GM's "immediate authority".
Yes this makes eminent sense, thank you for explaining!Well, for quantum foam I really mean to use the technical term "awesomesauce", or perhaps "world lubricant", but that sounds odd. Don't call it that.
I think what I mean is that there's sometimes a space in a game where the "authority structure" (whether that leans toward GM authority, or games with a more collaborative approach) does, as @chaochou says, break down. Suddenly no one knows if there are any pine cones on the forest floor, or if this particular wooden frame's made of oak or ash, or if these are the same goat-herders you saw from a distance three sessions ago.
By immediate authority I mean details that are perhaps too zoomed in, too fine grained, or just too ephemeral/mundane for the GM to have put in their prep. So the GM can't look at their notes to find out. The players have asked questions that do need an answer, and everyone is caught in a moment where it's Schroedinger's X. It's like a rugby scrum, in a way, two teams leaning into each other, balanced, with the ball bouncing around somewhere inside. An observer knows the ball is there, but can't say where.
Instead of this being a failure state, point of contention, or opportunity for the GM to re-assert authority ("Give me ten minutes while I research the types of wood used in Norse door frames and the density of pine cones in mixed forests"), it can be a fantastic opportunity to explore the emergent properties of a setting. Burning Wheel does this with the Die of Fate. Questions from the GM and players that can be formulated along the lines of could it be the case that...? is it possible and logical that X might happen...? are resolved by rolling a d6. On a 1, it happens. Maybe the odds get adjusted, if the group thinks that 2-in-6 or 50/50 is a better probability.
Here the immediate authority of the GM has broken down, the players can only ask questions of the environment, so the answer to the question is ceded to the die roll. And the game (not just Burning Wheel, any game can add this mechanic in with a coin toss or whatever), the fiction, the world-in-motion is taken out of the hands of the group. Many of the most memorable tangents and zig-zags and out-of-left-fields in the games I run have happened because of this "quantum foam", as I call it.
You feel me fam? Or am I talking rubbish?
Every game benefits from a little lube! Glad you understood what I'm getting at, and any given game's moments when the "tub of butter" comes out is a fine way of putting it!Yes this makes eminent sense, than you for explaining!
It reminds me of the first session in a campaign where we were trapped in a cellar with skeletons attacking and someone asked if there were any tubs of butter. The GM was a bit perplexed but said sure why not, and so we dumped the butter on the floor and the skeleons slipped and fell. We joked about "the butter trap" for the rest of the campaign! This is not exactly what you're talking about perhaps, but it's pretty close. Also it was literally lubricant.![]()
So what are the general limitations/parameters on this kind of addition to the fictional world? I have a couple thoughts on some basics principles.Every game benefits from a little lube! Glad you understood what I'm getting at, and any given game's moments when the "tub of butter" comes out is a fine way of putting it!
I don't think vetted/approved by the GM is the gist of what I was aiming at. I think it's when both the players and GM honestly don't know/aren't sure. So the randomiser determines whether the addition happens.So what are the general limitations/parameters on this kind of addition to the fictional world? I have a couple thoughts on some basics principles.
- Players make suggestions that are vetted/approved by the GM.
- These suggestions most not contravene existing established framing.
- These suggestions must elaborate on or provide additional detail to an existing element of the fiction.
- These elements must relate to something the player characters can perceive with their senses.