D&D 5E A use for True Strike

Asisreo

Patron Badass
This isn't an argument or anything, I think true strike is broken (in the underpowered way) but I think these combos are decent enough:

Level 3 sorcerer, Brass/Gold Draconic, Quickened & Twinned Metamagic. So, first round, cast Quickened Burning Hands and cast twinned True Strike as an action. Pray you don't get touched (you don't have to stay within the initial casting range, just be around 15ft away and use movement to be another 30ft for a total separation of 45 ft) and if you do get touched, enjoy your around +5-6 bonus to the concentration check. Next turn, cast Scorching Ray, your next attack for two targets have advantage and your third ray can double down anyone left. This did use 3 sorcery points so it's a good nova tactic but you still have a 2nd and 3 1st level spellslot which equates to about 5 more sorcery points if needed.

This thread isn't necessarily to "fix" true strike. I'm kinda curious if they're anymore action-efficient uses for true strike (aside from sneak attacks and casting before combat.)
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
This isn't an argument or anything, I think true strike is broken (in the underpowered way) but I think these combos are decent enough:

Level 3 sorcerer, Brass/Gold Draconic, Quickened & Twinned Metamagic. So, first round, cast Quickened Burning Hands and cast twinned True Strike as an action. Pray you don't get touched (you don't have to stay within the initial casting range, just be around 15ft away and use movement to be another 30ft for a total separation of 45 ft) and if you do get touched, enjoy your around +5-6 bonus to the concentration check. Next turn, cast Scorching Ray, your next attack for two targets have advantage and your third ray can double down anyone left. This did use 3 sorcery points so it's a good nova tactic but you still have a 2nd and 3 1st level spellslot which equates to about 5 more sorcery points if needed.

This thread isn't necessarily to "fix" true strike. I'm kinda curious if they're anymore action-efficient uses for true strike (aside from sneak attacks and casting before combat.)

Wouldn't you have been better off just casting firebolt with quicken instead of true strike?
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Wouldn't you have been better off just casting firebolt with quicken instead of true strike?
Perhaps, but it doesn't quite help with making sure the scorching rays (a limited resource) connect which would be more disappointing since at 3rd, a 2nd level slot is the highest spellslot.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Perhaps, but it doesn't quite help with making sure the scorching rays (a limited resource) connect which would be more disappointing since at 3rd, a 2nd level slot is the highest spellslot.

When all the scorching ray spell does is damage it kind of does. You are worse off using the same strategy you just mentioned with true strike than using the same resources at the same time with firebolt.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The only spell I can think of where using true strike might be advantageous would be inflict wounds. Giving advantage to a level 2 inflict wounds that will do 4d10 damage on a hit is fairly compelling.

That spell and cantrip aren't typically on the same spell lists though.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
When all the scorching ray spell does is damage it kind of does. You are worse off using the same strategy you just mentioned with true strike than using the same resources at the same time with firebolt.
How so? What I mean is that whether or not firebolt hits, the scorching ray has no extra benefits. Scorching Ray is three attacks that do 2d6 each which has a higher average damage and higher max damage than a firebolt's 1d10. If all of these attack rolls hit, it's 1d10+6d6 damage but that's if they hit. If even one of the scorching rays miss, the damage would've been below the damage if only the three scorching rays hit without firebolt. Twinning true strike ensures two of the scorching rays have a target with advantage and increases the chances that all three hits.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
How so? What I mean is that whether or not firebolt hits, the scorching ray has no extra benefits. Scorching Ray is three attacks that do 2d6 each which has a higher average damage and higher max damage than a firebolt's 1d10. If all of these attack rolls hit, it's 1d10+6d6 damage but that's if they hit. If even one of the scorching rays miss, the damage would've been below the damage if only the three scorching rays hit without firebolt. Twinning true strike ensures two of the scorching rays have a target with advantage and increases the chances that all three hits.

Assuming 60% chance to hit
Twin True Strike + Scorching Ray DPR = 15.96
Twin Firebolt + Scorching Ray DPR = 19.2

That's a 20% increase if you just use firebolt instead of true strike.

2d10 + 4d6 is better than 4d6 at advantage
 

Another possible edge case: assuming you have a character built around greenflame blade, (ergo no Extra Attack) who also has the Elven Accuracy feat - could it be better to use true strike instead of attacking twice?

Assuming of course no other source of advantage is in play.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Assuming 60% chance to hit
Twin True Strike + Scorching Ray DPR = 15.96
Twin Firebolt + Scorching Ray DPR = 19.2

That's a 20% increase if you just use firebolt instead of true strike.

2d10 + 4d6 is better than 4d6 at advantage
Okay, so there's 2 things with that. 1: Technically Firebolt isn't a candidate to be twinned per the Sage Advice Compendium. Is it dumb? Yes. But that's how it is. 2: The probability calculations are a bit off. .6 is assuming the damage is a uniform thing between the two rounds but it's actually back-loaded where the higher damage is on round 2 with scorching rays. True strike increases the probability of the two scorching rays by an amount (that I need to reference) but firebolt just increases potential damage output. Like I said, it's worse if the scorching rays miss which they might compared to advantage.
 




FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Another possible edge case: assuming you have a character built around greenflame blade, (ergo no Extra Attack) who also has the Elven Accuracy feat - could it be better to use true strike instead of attacking twice?

Assuming of course no other source of advantage is in play.

This is a good question. Let's evaluate.

Assuming 60% accuracy again.
For 2 attack character: Damage output is at 1.2*Damage
For Elven accuracy: Damage output is 0.936*Damage

You would need to be attacking something at a 35% chance to hit before you would be better off using true strike.

(excluded crits for quickness but unlikely they will beenough to make a difference)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Suggestion - actually give the calculation to prove it. If he didn't accept it unexplained before, you've given no new information to get the other person to accept it now.

Unless you figure folks are supposed to take it because of... you're outstanding charisma?

Or an alternative - he could say what he got when he calculated it. Without that it's basically worthless to tell someone they are wrong no?
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Okay, so there's 2 things with that. 1: Technically Firebolt isn't a candidate to be twinned per the Sage Advice Compendium. Is it dumb? Yes. But that's how it is. 2: The probability calculations are a bit off. .6 is assuming the damage is a uniform thing between the two rounds but it's actually back-loaded where the higher damage is on round 2 with scorching rays. True strike increases the probability of the two scorching rays by an amount (that I need to reference) but firebolt just increases potential damage output. Like I said, it's worse if the scorching rays miss which they might compared to advantage.
Okay, so 60% with advantage gives an 84% chance to hit. Using average damage 2(7*.84)+7*.6 = 15.96

Twinned firebolt is 2(5.5*.6)+(3*7*.6) = 19.2 so the calculations are right.

Eh, oh well. Probability can't really be translated so easily by DPR since the damage is still back-loaded and falls behind if you miss even one scorching ray but it's not a horse I'd die on.
 



Asisreo

Patron Badass
This is a good question. Let's evaluate.

Assuming 60% accuracy again.
For 2 attack character: Damage output is at 1.2*Damage
For Elven accuracy: Damage output is 0.936*Damage

You would need to be attacking something at a 35% chance to hit before you would be better off using true strike.

(excluded crits for quickness but unlikely they will beenough to make a difference)
Crits also bring about a good evaluation...actually...I think our calculations are off because we haven't calculated crits.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Or an alternative - he could say what he got when he calculated it. Without that it's basically worthless to tell someone they are wrong no?

Well, yours was the first assertion of what the number is, so burden of proof would generally sit with you.
 

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