Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
Wait.
While I would not certainly not choose 4E as the game to work from, I am drawing on ideas present in any edition as I build my own preferred version of D&D up from 1E.
See the sig.
A vision of a D&D retro-clone with new school elements
- Thread starter ferratus
- Start date
While I would not certainly not choose 4E as the game to work from, I am drawing on ideas present in any edition as I build my own preferred version of D&D up from 1E.
See the sig.
delericho
Legend
I'd start by building the checklist of elements that I wanted (as you have), and then selecting the engine that most closely approxmates my goals. In my case, that means building from the "kernel" of the d20 system - the very simple set of core mechanics at the heart of 3e, but without all the masses of complexity that exist even in 3e. (Star Wars Saga Edition actually seems closer to this core even than 3e, and in some ways is the better game for it IMO.)
There is one other major concern I would consider before starting in earnest, though: how much do I want to reuse? The more heavily you modify a system, the harder it becomes to reuse the masses of monsters, spells and magic items that exist in your source. If you're happy with rebuilding all of these, then that's not a problem, but if you can't face all that work, you're probably best restricting yourself to minimal changes. A system that does only 75% of what you want, but that you can play today, is better than a system that does 100% of what you want that is never going to be ready for use.
Anyway, having made the checklist, and chosen the basis for work, I would proceed to split the game up into subsystems, and gradually start work on designing each of these. Try to keep the various subsystems reasonably small and self-contained, and try to get someone else to at least review your work - you'll get more done if you can see obvious progress towards the goal, and a second set of eyes will make for fewer mistakes.
delericho
Legend
As for my checklist:
BECMI D&D:
- Tiers
AD&D 1st Edition:
Nothing except the 'feel' of the game. To whit:
1. This is a game for adults. It won't go out of its way to offend, but it also makes no apologies for what it is. If that offends, then that's too bad.
2. The game takes itself seriously, but not too seriously.
3. The old-school vibe. More Elric/Conan/Lankhmar, less Drizzt/Wheel of Time/World of Warcraft. (I have nothing against those latter sources, but see 1)
AD&D 2nd Edition:
Again nothing, except that this shows the sort of density of options I'm looking for. (That is, core 2nd Edition.) Not too many, not too few, but a nice medium.
3e:
- Basically, the core of the system: roll d20 + mods to beat DC for most rolls; roll d% (with no modifiers) for fixed probabilities.
- The above also covers a multitude of little details - skills have ranks, characters have feats, the alignment system is intact, monsters work much like PCs, and so on.
But definitely not:
- Too many 'bad' options. Every option should be at least reasonable; Bards and Monks were too often far too weak, likewise Half-orcs and Half-elves, and there were too many armours that no-one ever used.
- System mastery. A small amount is inevitable, but too much means that experienced players can't sit at the same table as newbies without one group or the other being dissatisfied.
4e:
- Per-encounter balancing.
- Class roles (although I would neither be so rigid nor so explicit about them)
- The encounter design philosophy, and especially the Minion/"Normal"/Elite/Solo split and monster roles.
- The Skill Challenge concept.
- All characters have some ability to heal themselves. I wouldn't use healing surges as such, though.
- Less fragile 1st level characters.
- Rituals.
- Passive Perception (and Sense Motive) defense.
Star Wars Saga Edition:
- Talent Trees. These strike me as a very elegant way to allow players to customise their characters, and also a neat solution to the "dead levels" problem.
- The condition track, but not the damage threshold.
- A damage bonus for high BAB in place of iterative attacks. (Actually, this would probably be handled by adding damage dice, rather than adding a damage modifier.)
Trailblazer:
- Combat reactions. Another elegant way to consolidate Immediate actions, the ability of some Elite/Solo monsters to act when it's not their turn, and Attacks of Opportunity.
Pathfinder:
- Combat Maneuver Bonus and Defense.
- The skill system. Also most of the skills, although I probably wouldn't bother with Fly, and would certainly add an Athletics skill to combine Climb, Swim, Jump and Run (not currently a skill).
Arcana Evolved:
- Probably the division of spells into Simple and Complex spells.
WFRP 3e:
- More abstract combat - no need for minis/less micromanagement of positions.
Other:
- "Stunt Elements", allowing the player to declare a single complex stunt and resolve it in a single roll.
- "After the fact stunting". A character who misses his roll by a couple of points can "rephrase his action" to tie it to one of his stunt elements to gain a small, but crucial, bonus. Repeated use of the same element gives a decreasing bonus, of course.
- Mana points, consolidating all the "impossible things" that a PC might do into a single pool.
- Split the hit point and mana point pools into two. Hit points have a 'quick' pool (that refreshes with a short rest) and a 'dead' pool (which only powerful healing magic can refresh during an adventure). Mana has a 'slow' pool (that refreshes with a short rest) and a 'live' pool (that drops to 0 with a short rest) - characters can take an action to increase their 'live' pool during an encounter.
- Shields don't give an AC bonus - they give a pool of bonus hit points.
- More abstract (and simpler) encumberance system.
- Reduced emphasis on ability scores - modifiers are +1 per 3 points, not 2; ability damage/increases apply a condition, but do not directly change the modifier (as with hit points); remove the +1 to a score every N levels; remove most spells and effects that modify scores; scores are generated using 4d6-drop-lowest in order by default.
- Reduction of choices at 1st level to speed character generation, especially for new players. The first feat is gained at 2nd level; Spellcasters get a fixed set of basic spells at first level; ability scores generated as above.
- Characters attain their maximum BAB, skill ranks, and capstone powers at 15th level. If they continue beyond that point, the game is more focused on legacy and empire building than on accumulating ever-greater powers.
BECMI D&D:
- Tiers
AD&D 1st Edition:
Nothing except the 'feel' of the game. To whit:
1. This is a game for adults. It won't go out of its way to offend, but it also makes no apologies for what it is. If that offends, then that's too bad.
2. The game takes itself seriously, but not too seriously.
3. The old-school vibe. More Elric/Conan/Lankhmar, less Drizzt/Wheel of Time/World of Warcraft. (I have nothing against those latter sources, but see 1)
AD&D 2nd Edition:
Again nothing, except that this shows the sort of density of options I'm looking for. (That is, core 2nd Edition.) Not too many, not too few, but a nice medium.
3e:
- Basically, the core of the system: roll d20 + mods to beat DC for most rolls; roll d% (with no modifiers) for fixed probabilities.
- The above also covers a multitude of little details - skills have ranks, characters have feats, the alignment system is intact, monsters work much like PCs, and so on.
But definitely not:
- Too many 'bad' options. Every option should be at least reasonable; Bards and Monks were too often far too weak, likewise Half-orcs and Half-elves, and there were too many armours that no-one ever used.
- System mastery. A small amount is inevitable, but too much means that experienced players can't sit at the same table as newbies without one group or the other being dissatisfied.
4e:
- Per-encounter balancing.
- Class roles (although I would neither be so rigid nor so explicit about them)
- The encounter design philosophy, and especially the Minion/"Normal"/Elite/Solo split and monster roles.
- The Skill Challenge concept.
- All characters have some ability to heal themselves. I wouldn't use healing surges as such, though.
- Less fragile 1st level characters.
- Rituals.
- Passive Perception (and Sense Motive) defense.
Star Wars Saga Edition:
- Talent Trees. These strike me as a very elegant way to allow players to customise their characters, and also a neat solution to the "dead levels" problem.
- The condition track, but not the damage threshold.
- A damage bonus for high BAB in place of iterative attacks. (Actually, this would probably be handled by adding damage dice, rather than adding a damage modifier.)
Trailblazer:
- Combat reactions. Another elegant way to consolidate Immediate actions, the ability of some Elite/Solo monsters to act when it's not their turn, and Attacks of Opportunity.
Pathfinder:
- Combat Maneuver Bonus and Defense.
- The skill system. Also most of the skills, although I probably wouldn't bother with Fly, and would certainly add an Athletics skill to combine Climb, Swim, Jump and Run (not currently a skill).
Arcana Evolved:
- Probably the division of spells into Simple and Complex spells.
WFRP 3e:
- More abstract combat - no need for minis/less micromanagement of positions.
Other:
- "Stunt Elements", allowing the player to declare a single complex stunt and resolve it in a single roll.
- "After the fact stunting". A character who misses his roll by a couple of points can "rephrase his action" to tie it to one of his stunt elements to gain a small, but crucial, bonus. Repeated use of the same element gives a decreasing bonus, of course.
- Mana points, consolidating all the "impossible things" that a PC might do into a single pool.
- Split the hit point and mana point pools into two. Hit points have a 'quick' pool (that refreshes with a short rest) and a 'dead' pool (which only powerful healing magic can refresh during an adventure). Mana has a 'slow' pool (that refreshes with a short rest) and a 'live' pool (that drops to 0 with a short rest) - characters can take an action to increase their 'live' pool during an encounter.
- Shields don't give an AC bonus - they give a pool of bonus hit points.
- More abstract (and simpler) encumberance system.
- Reduced emphasis on ability scores - modifiers are +1 per 3 points, not 2; ability damage/increases apply a condition, but do not directly change the modifier (as with hit points); remove the +1 to a score every N levels; remove most spells and effects that modify scores; scores are generated using 4d6-drop-lowest in order by default.
- Reduction of choices at 1st level to speed character generation, especially for new players. The first feat is gained at 2nd level; Spellcasters get a fixed set of basic spells at first level; ability scores generated as above.
- Characters attain their maximum BAB, skill ranks, and capstone powers at 15th level. If they continue beyond that point, the game is more focused on legacy and empire building than on accumulating ever-greater powers.
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Yeah in our gaming group when we played 2E we would always say things like "OK. Make characters with 5th level Wizard XP.". Wizards were the most expensive to level and set a good base to things.
On some levels I might be able to be ok with a version of 2E that did a few things:
removed race/class restrictions
racial level limits
got rid of the stupid dual classing
simplified saving throws
ditch alignment
made rolling high always better (positive ACs/saves/etc)
better skill system
Of course, then I'm at 3E and I prefer 4E to 3E straight out of the book. Not to mention if I was going to aim for a 3E style game I would play Arcana Evolved first. Much prefer that magic system, altho the Witch has never impressed me at all. Really that and the Oathbound are about the only weak spot in that book IMO.
ExploderWizard, I dig the Run DMC reference
FATDRAGONGAMES
First Post
Yep, C&C really is the best mesh I've found of a system that has the fun/feel of old school RPGs but is built using modern mechanics. Troll Lord Games really did a fantastic job with the system, and the stuff that is coming out now/this year is really taking the game to a whole new level of quality. If you haven't tried it yet, I cannot recommend it highly enough. The core PHB which has all of the rules to play is only $20 (and the guys down at TLG are a good bunch of people and really support their customers as good or better than any other company in the industry.)
Treebore
First Post
Me too. I use Castles and Crusades because it had the best ground work for what I wanted in my "D&D", and then I just added on the elements I liked best from various editions of D&D, including ideas from 4E.
I am currently entertaining weapon speed and weapon versus armor rules, because I am also currently running the new Hackmaster Basic which has those elements in it, and is bringing back the desire to have them again, even among my players.
However, I have not brought back static saves, let alone only 3 saves, I like how C&C has saves based off of every stat, because now there are no true "dump stats", sooner or later a crappy non prime stat will bite you in the arse, and you will always have 2 or 3 Achilles heel's. You will never feel sure you will make a save, ever. I like that.
Plus I really like being able to easily adapt magic items and spells, as well as monsters, from every edition of D&D, including such ideas I like from 4E. All with very minimal work.
I am currently entertaining weapon speed and weapon versus armor rules, because I am also currently running the new Hackmaster Basic which has those elements in it, and is bringing back the desire to have them again, even among my players.
However, I have not brought back static saves, let alone only 3 saves, I like how C&C has saves based off of every stat, because now there are no true "dump stats", sooner or later a crappy non prime stat will bite you in the arse, and you will always have 2 or 3 Achilles heel's. You will never feel sure you will make a save, ever. I like that.
Plus I really like being able to easily adapt magic items and spells, as well as monsters, from every edition of D&D, including such ideas I like from 4E. All with very minimal work.
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