Level Up (A5E) A5E Warlock Rules Discussion - Eldritch Grasp + Synergies

[steels12]

Hey all,

One of my players recently made a Warlock and we've run into some fuzziness on particular eldritch invocations, and my questions around how you interpret the rules surrounding it. Specifically, we're talking about the Eldritch Grasp invocation and the potential synergies around it and how they affect combat.

RAW text below:
Eldritch Grasp
Prerequisite: 7th level
When you hit a Large-sized or smaller creature
with your Eldritch Blast or when a Large-sized or
smaller creature fails its saving throw against it,
you can attempt to grapple the creature, using your
spell save DC instead of your maneuver DC. The
grapple automatically ends if the creature leaves
your Eldritch Blast range or if you attempt to
grapple another creature.

My player has interpreted this ruling to mean that when you cast your eldritch blast and hit a creature, they take full damage and then must save against being grappled. However, I can see an argument for this becoming something that has effectively no cost and thus very spammable, especially if you're up to, say, level 11 and can shoot three blasts per turn, and I worry about constant saving throws bogging down combat on that player's turn (not massively, but enough that a one-trick becomes grating for the others). It also seems wildly powerful, typically one has to be in and STAY in melee range to keep a creature grappled, but with this first interpretation, one could stand up to 120 feet away with Eldritch Ray and be able to make 3 grapple attempts per turn every turn, with the enemy having to spend their entire action just to not be grappled. One example of a very powerful synergy would be Repelling Blast which just lets you push a creature of any size, speed, or magnitude 10 feet just by hitting them. That could be used 3 times per turn PLUS grapple to completely root most enemies out of range and soft stunlock them.

So one interpretation I suggested was that, firstly, line of sight is required to be maintained, as typically this would put an enemy out of "range" of a direct-to-hit attack spell. Secondly, one of the trade-offs of grappling normally is you're foregoing your normal attack / weapon damage to instead inflict a debuff (the rules for Basic Melee Damage even specify it can't be used to activate other abilities unless explicitly stated), so I wonder if it's meant to be interpreted as "you can attempt to grapple with your eldritch blast, meaning you do "basic damage" but force them to roll or be grappled".

There's a lot of counterarguments to be made, such as having an allied enemy use a grapple maneuver to try and free their compatriot, breaking line of sight, the fact that not all Warlocks will choose Eldritch Ray, the fact most combat won't just have one enemy, the fact it's a 2-invocation cost to synergize, the fact combat terrain might not just be an open featureless room, etc etc. I'm just curious how everyone feels / interprets this.

 

[Sepulchre]

Your player is right. If eldritch blast hits or the the targeted creature fails its save, they take EB damage and then have to save or be grappled.

It’s decent but it’s not gamebreaking to allow a creature to make a ranged grapple against one creature. A grappled creature can still use their action to try to break the ranged grapple.

Let your players be powerful and use their 7th-level abilities to do powerful things.

 

[lichmaster]

On top of what already said, this only works up to Large creatures. Also remember that they're just grappled, so they still have their entire action economy available and can make any ranged attacks, cast spells, or anything else. Really they just lose the ability to move around, so it's a soft stunlock only against creatures that only have melee attacks AND have low str or dex saves.

However I do agree with you that rolling multiple saves can be a bit of a time drag. What you could do in this case is to flip the save mechanic: instead of the creature rolling a save, have the character roll 2 dice simultaneously, one for the normal attack, and the other as the "grapple attack", which only counts if the attack hits. Treat the "grapple attack" as a d20+spellcasting modifier vs 8+str/dex mod + proficiency mod of the creature if the creature is proficient in that save.

Truly, the save mechanic should always be flipped IMO -> instead of having one AC, creatures have 7 defenses: standard AC, and a defense for every "save".

 

[Selganor]

If you did that then having disadvantage on attacks would not only be equivalent to "all your targets have advantage on their saves against your effects"
But also, turning all saves into attacks would add a 5% auto-fail to any effect.

Do you really want that?

As for the example... since you only need to check for grapple when you hit you might roll useless dice. Telling the target to make x (the number of hits) saves vs. your spell dc would probably be faster since grappled condition usually doesn't affect your further attacks this round.

 

[Tessarael]

First you fire your Eldritch Blast, and then you can attempt to grapple with Eldritch Grasp one target that was affected by your Eldritch Blast. There's nothing specific in the LUA5E wording that says the creature has to make multiple saves vs. grapple on the same turn if it was hit by multiple Eldritch Rays for example - I don't think I would allow this as DM as it slows down play to much otherwise - just the one save per turn vs. the grapple.

Note that the Warlock is spending an Eldritch Invocation for the Eldritch Grasp capability. Yes, it is good, but it is a 7th level Warlock power. As others have noted, it is not over-powered at that character level.

If you are struggling with enemies escaping the grapple, I would suggest the house rule to allow one grapple escape attempt per attack for both enemies with multi-attack, and for PCs with the extra attack action. That way, if the enemy escapes on the first attempt on their turn, they could then move, and fire off their remaining attacks (assuming their multi-attack involved 2+ attacks). I do find that grappling can be a bit too much of a nerf otherwise.

It is also worth comparing Eldritch Grasp to the Eldritch Bind invocation that can also be selected at Warlock level 7. That paralyzes the target for 1 minute if it fails a Constitution save, after having been hit by your Eldritch Whip, and it can repeat the save at the end of each turn. Eldritch Bind can be used once per short rest, and after spending 5 spell points, so it can be used quite often. And paralysis is much nastier than just being grappled.

 

[Selganor]

Once you fail a save versus the grapple you don't have to roll again but I'd allow multiple potential saves since things like agonizing blast also work for each and the warlock can only grapple one creature, once they use eldritch grasp on someone else the other grapple ends.

 

[lichmaster]

If you did that then having disadvantage on attacks would not only be equivalent to "all your targets have advantage on their saves against your effects"
But also, turning all saves into attacks would add a 5% auto-fail to any effect.

I called it a "grapple attack" but maybe it should be called a "grapple check", which is more specific. This way unintended advantages or disadvantages do not get factored in. Also, the auto-fail chance in case of a nat 1 (or auto succeed in case of a 20) is a corner case that can be adjudicated in advance. Neither choice is automatically preferable, the only thing that matters is being consistent.

As for the example... since you only need to check for grapple when you hit you might roll useless dice. Telling the target to make x (the number of hits) saves vs. your spell dc would probably be faster since grappled condition usually doesn't affect your further attacks this round.

Of course you don't need to re-roll after successfully grappling a target, but also rolling 2 dice and ignoring one doesn't cost more time than rolling only 1 die... Let's be reasonable