Abilities and Hit Points: Thoughts

[Snapdragyn]

Yeah, everything being all about abilities, abilities, abilities... I don't know. I get the idea of this allowing low-level enemies to remain a hazard at high level (provided they attack in numbers), but to me it just creates a feel of 'Heroes Are Born - Not Made'. That isn't really the game or character concept I want to play - at least, not every time.

 

[BobTheNob]

I don't think it's good, myself. I don't like that characters don't get that much better as they level up, but I understand that's personal preference. I would like to have modest attack bonus and AC gains as characters level up so that a high-level fighter can cut through a low-level guard in platemail with ease.

Correct me if Im wrong I thought they were getting a "modest" bonus as they leveled (fighters at least).

Personally the scaling back of bonus's has been one of the biggest happy points of all of the innovations they have eluded to. I remember coming to the same conclusion half-way through our 4e play and pondering how I could house rule it so (never did, just played 4e to its end), and that 5e is taking this step is...refreshing.

Looking forward to seeing how fighter advancement is going to work.

 

[Kinak]

Cause you can still get killed?

-YRUSirius

I deserved that for asking a rhetorical question.

But I think the point stands. It's not that Dausuul or I are incapable of providing PCs with an appropriate Wealth By Level allocation. We just don't think it's a good thing to hinge game balance on.

If my players comes up with some great moneymaking idea or lucks out and beats some encounter way above their heads, I want to be able to reward them with a giant sack of cash. If that translates to a giant sack of HP, I'm going to be more stingy, which just sucks for my players.

Similarly, if the game has an option for this extra pool of GP-based HP, encounter pacing will change based on your party's wealth. If your campaign falls under the Wealth By Level, characters don't have staying power and daily effects become more prevalent. If your campaign is over the Wealth By Level, they can afford to push further and daily effects will show up less.

It's trivial to get the wealth dial to the "right place," but there are plenty of reasons you might want to have more or less gold in your game. Pinning something as important as HP to wealth makes the decision "I want the PCs to be able to afford a fortress" suddenly carry the baggage of a "short rests include full healing" houserule.

And, yes, all of that can be fixed with houserules or never deviating from the assumed Wealth By Level. Or they could make healing potions work like other medicine and we'd never have to worry about it.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[ren1999]

I don't think it's good, myself. I don't like that characters don't get that much better as they level up, but I understand that's personal preference. I would like to have modest attack bonus and AC gains as characters level up so that a high-level fighter can cut through a low-level guard in platemail with ease.

I agree with you B.T. I'm feeling very uncomfortable with not putting 1/2 level into the attack and damage bonuses. I'm afraid this is going to drag out combat.

Play-testing this doesn't show that because all the character's damage die are inflated by 1 die and the monster's hit points look artificially lowered.

 

[ren1999]

Yeah, everything being all about abilities, abilities, abilities... I don't know. I get the idea of this allowing low-level enemies to remain a hazard at high level (provided they attack in numbers), but to me it just creates a feel of 'Heroes Are Born - Not Made'. That isn't really the game or character concept I want to play - at least, not every time.

I totally agree with that. Your success in battle is a result of your natural abilities and years of experience. LEVEL has got to account for something in combat. Not just abilities. Sure, use abilities as defense rolls. We're already doing that with Fort, Ref and Will, just have 7 defense rolls instead of 4. But have level bonuses added to attacks and defenses. Don't just add 1 hit die of damage to make combat go faster during this play-test.

 

[underfoot007ct]

Only if the supply of gold is so low as to make it a binding constraint on hit point recovery. This is seldom the case, as evidenced by the widespread use of wands of cure light wounds in 3E.

Like I said, D&D is not a computer game. You can't assume tight cash limits in a world where the PCs can go anywhere and do anything. All it takes is one time where the PCs think of some ingenious scheme and score a big haul of loot, and your balanced constraint goes out the window.

I truly detest the 3e wand of CLW, but It's crafting wands that lets PC have an almost unlimited supply of wands, not cash.

I disagree on the PC's cash control.That is the DM's job, to run a good game, but run the game he or she chooses. Letting the PC scheme or scam money is just poor DMing, IIMHO. If you accidentally let them get too much loot, you just take it away, (in game). Steal it, make them spend it, buy a boat or a tower, etc.

Like you said, D&D is not a computer game, a REAL live person runs the game, so it has unlimited possibilities.

 

[TerraDave]

Wasn't there mention of a silver standard in one of the blogs?

If gp was a lot scarcer, then our assumptions, on, say, HERBALISM, or armor, could be far off.

 

[slobster]

I agree with you B.T. I'm feeling very uncomfortable with not putting 1/2 level into the attack and damage bonuses. I'm afraid this is going to drag out combat.

Play-testing this doesn't show that because all the character's damage die are inflated by 1 die and the monster's hit points look artificially lowered.

It shouldn't drag out combat, unless you mean that your games regularly involve combat against enemies significantly lower in level than you (which, hey, you might). But if you get +32 to hit and defenses from level, and your enemy gets +32 to hit and defenses from level . . . then you are right back where you started, probability-wise.

Scaling by level gives you the sense of progress because you can more easily dominate weak enemies, but does nothing to speed up combat against identically scaled-up foes.