D&D (2024) Abilities as Spells: splitting your abilities between class section and spell section

[Gammadoodler]

I'm from the other school of thought, which is that all features and abilities are pretty much all the same and the only differences are who can use them, the methods for acquiring them, the number of times they can be used before needing the number reset, the type of action needed to use it, and how they are organized.

Spells are just class features that you get a lot of options to choose from and have a set pattern of numbers of times they can be used and when they refresh. How is that different than say something like Channel Divinity? Isn't CD merely just a Spell Slot chart of one slot per long rest (or eventually short rest) with a Spell List of two spells? Or like the three Hunter Ranger's 'Hunter's Prey' abilities at 3rd level which are essentially just three at-will attack cantrips who effects occur on whatever the timing of the ability says, that you choose to "Know" one of, and they can't be countered by Counterspell or Dispel Magic.

Mechanics are mechanics. Just piles of game rules. It really only ends up how we assign their functionality in the narrative of the game that makes them SEEM like they are different things. The Cure Wounds spell, or a "poultice" ability a Ranger might get? Could very well have the exact same mechanics and it's only because we narratively assign one the description of "Magic Spell" and the other "Herbs used to create a salve" that makes them different. And this is why it doesn't bother me when something is "made a Spell"... because I have no issue refluffing the narrative of a mechanic. If a feature has been made into a "Spell" by the book and I want it instead to read as a class feature? Then I just do it.

I mean, that's how I've had Warlord-type characters in my games for a while now... by just using Clerics with specific spells and refluffing them as no longer divine or magical and instead the Spells are just martial class features. Rules are changed, added, and removed from the game all the time, so why get hung up on them? After all... that game rule you think is unmalleable? The next book WotC makes could easily change it. So if WotC's going to not hold to these rules hard and fast... why should you? Make the rules and mechanics into how you want them to be to help your story.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems the central complaint is more about the organization and presentation of the abilities than whether they are labeled as "spells"

Specifically the concern seems to be the section of content that presents the abilities you can get may often be geographically distant from the section of content that explains the substance of those abilities.

In 5e, this happens most often with spells since there is a spells section of the book which is separated from the rest of character creation. Depending on how they choose to go with OneDND, this could also happen with feats.

Currently I'm playing PF2e, which has significantly more of this (spells, ancestry feats, skill feats, general feats, nested conditions, etc.). If I were solely reliant upon a book, especially hardcopy, it would be maddening.

As it is, I play online and have access to digital tools that make things pretty easy to manage. So I guess it irks me a bit in concept but has little impact in practice?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems the central complaint is more about the organization and presentation of the abilities than whether they are labeled as "spells"

Perhaps that is the only complaint? If that's the case then true, my statements are not applicable. I believe I probably presumed that what I took from the issue seemed to be a very frequent complaint here on the boards, which is the proliferation of magic in the game and thus the idea that these abilities were Spells. So many people always decry there being too much magic, so I made (a perhaps incorrect) assumption that the issue was as much about them being magical spells as it was just info location-- that the "instructions" for said class features were going to appear elsewhere in the book and not just there in the class listing.

If I was mistaken in my presumption, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

If a magical effect is intended to follow the rules of spells (Magic action, casting time, saving throws, attack rolls, spell resistance, concentration, and all that) then it should be a spell, rather than have to rewrite all the spell rules in that ability.

If you are playing a spell caster, the majority of your abilities are already spells and you are already accessing the Spells section of the PH to see what those abilities do. Therefore, I believe that class abilities that can be spells should be spells in the Spells section of the PH, as you're already using the PH as a "spellbook" resource.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

If a magical effect is intended to follow the rules of spells (Magic action, casting time, saving throws, attack rolls, spell resistance, concentration, and all that) then it should b

that is why I think eldritch blast and hex make sense... maybe memorize spell. Alter spell scribe spell and create spell don't feel like they need any of that (Magic action, casting time, saving throws, attack rolls, spell resistance, concentration, and all that)
Book of shadows 100% doesn't need that, and neither does pact blade... I could argue both ways for pact familiar

If you are playing a spell caster, the majority of your abilities are already spells and you are already accessing the Spells section of the PH to see what those abilities do. Therefore, I believe that class abilities that can be spells should be spells in the Spells section of the PH, as you're already using the PH as a "spellbook" resource.

 

[codo]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems the central complaint is more about the organization and presentation of the abilities than whether they are labeled as "spells"

I love the idea of turning some character options into spells, but I can't see a reason to place them in the spell section. If you have a spell that the only way to receive it is from your class, it should just be listed in the class entry by the level you receive it. My guess is that that is how they will end up doing it in the final book. They playtests are not the final rules, after all they are currently just a raw, barely formatted PDF. For the playtest they really don't seem that interesting in formatting and usability yet.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I love the idea of turning some character options into spells, but I can't see a reason to place them in the spell section. If you have a spell that the only way to receive it is from your class, it should just be listed in the class entry by the level you receive it. My guess is that that is how they will end up doing it in the final book. They playtests are not the final rules, after all they are currently just a raw, barely formatted PDF. For the playtest they really don't seem that interesting in formatting and usability yet.

I mentioned this earlier, but if you are playing a spell caster, the majority of your abilities are already spells and you are already accessing the Spells section of the PH to see what those abilities do. Therefore, I believe that class abilities that can be spells should be spells in the Spells section of the PH, and that is where one should go to read up on the spell. After all, you're already using the PH as a "spellbook" resource.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I love the idea of turning some character options into spells, but I can't see a reason to place them in the spell section. If you have a spell that the only way to receive it is from your class, it should just be listed in the class entry by the level you receive it. My guess is that that is how they will end up doing it in the final book. They playtests are not the final rules, after all they are currently just a raw, barely formatted PDF. For the playtest they really don't seem that interesting in formatting and usability yet.

I think as a practical matter, keeping all spells together, whatever they are and however they are granted, is the more robust solution.

That way if spell access opens up later via feat, or race, subclass, item, or some other way than class, the relevant mechanics are all accessible from a single directory rather than a split into multiple locations.

 

[codo]

I mentioned this earlier, but if you are playing a spell caster, the majority of your abilities are already spells and you are already accessing the Spells section of the PH to see what those abilities do. Therefore, I believe that class abilities that can be spells should be spells in the Spells section of the PH, and that is where one should go to read up on the spell. After all, you're already using the PH as a "spellbook" resource.

But why? Literally the only time someone is ever going to need to look up these spells is when they gain them when leveling up. Look at the Warlock Pacts, why should a player need to flip through the spell section and look up the 3 different spells, in 3 different locations? When you could just place them in the class section at the appropriate level. I'm not going to lie, it was pretty annoying when I was building a new warlock that I needed to constantly flip back and forth through 3 different pages to compare the different Pact spells. Maybe you can immediately memorize 3 spells word for word, each of which has several different parts. It's too much for me.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

But why? Literally the only time someone is ever going to need to look up these spells is when they gain them when leveling up. Look at the Warlock Pacts, why should a player need to flip through the spell section and look up the 3 different spells, in 3 different locations? When you could just place them in the class section at the appropriate level. I'm not going to lie, it was pretty annoying when I was building a new warlock that I needed to constantly flip back and forth through 3 different pages to compare the different Pact spells. Maybe you can immediately memorize 3 spells word for word, each of which has several different parts. It's too much for me.

It seems you are contradicting yourself. First you say " Literally the only time someone is ever going to need to look up these spells is when they gain them when leveling up." So you are memorizing it and never need to look it up again? I don't agree with this because I don't expect anyone to memorize anything.

Second, you say "Maybe you can immediately memorize 3 spells word for word, each of which has several different parts. It's too much for me." but you made some assumptions about never needing to look up spells again.

Anyroad, my main point is that it is very simple logic to look for spells in the Spells section. It makes no sense to look for some spells in the Class section and other spells in the Spells section. And if you know that all spells are in the Spell section, you just look it up alphabetically. And no, I do not believe that rules objects should be reprinted in different parts of the book. If the book is going to be chonky, I don't want that to be the case due to duplicating rules.

 

[codo]

It seems you are contradicting yourself. First you say " Literally the only time someone is ever going to need to look up these spells is when they gain them when leveling up." So you are memorizing it and never need to look it up again? I don't agree with this because I don't expect anyone to memorize anything.

Second, you say "Maybe you can immediately memorize 3 spells word for word, each of which has several different parts. It's too much for me." but you made some assumptions about never needing to look up spells again.

Anyroad, my main point is that it is very simple logic to look for spells in the Spells section. It makes no sense to look for some spells in the Class section and other spells in the Spells section. And if you know that all spells are in the Spell section, you just look it up alphabetically. And no, I do not believe that rules objects should be reprinted in different parts of the book. If the book is going to be chonky, I don't want that to be the case due to duplicating rules.

I am not contradicting myself. Of course once you pick one of the pact options you will write it down on your character sheet, and won't need to look it up again. I was just pointing out that it is really annoying when you are deciding what pact you are going to choose, you need to keep flipping between different parts of the book to compare them.

It's a lot easier to compare 3 complicated options when they are right next to each other on the same page, rather then spread out all of the spell section. If I look up pact familiar, then pact blade on a different page, and then finally have to look up book of shadows on a third page, I am pretty likely to forget some of the details of how a familiar works. How many hit points did your familiar have again? I then need to look up the pact familiar for a second time. They are just too complicated of spells for me to keep all the details of all three in my head after one readthrough.