Abilities with Prerequisites & taking the prerequisites at the same time?

[Ambrus]

This came up in another thread I'd started and I though it might warrant its own discussion.

So say that as part of leveling you gain the option of choosing a new class ability, feat or whatever and it has prerequisites associated with it, but you also have the ability to take that prerequisite, can you take both at the same time? For instance imagine a 6th level fighter gaining a fighter feat and a free feat for his 6th level, could he take both Cleave and Great Cleave at the same time?

In my case, it was suggested that my character, as part of taking a level of swordsage, couldn't take a maneuver along with its prerequisite maneuver at the same time. It hadn't occurred to me that that might be a problem until someone suggested otherwise to me. IMC we've always assumed that if you have the oppurtunity that you could take an ability and its prerequisite at the same time. Have we been playing it wrong all along?

 

[Particle_Man]

Tricky.

The way I have been doing it, you can't get a prestige class level at the same time as you get the BAB needed as a prerequisite for that prestige class (so one could not take Dwarven Defender at 7th character level, but must wait for 8th character level, because of the +7 BAB prerequisite).

On the other hand, for feats taken at the same level I allow for one to be a prerequisite of the other. So a 6th level fighter who gets his 6th character level and 6th fighter level simultaneously could take Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack together.

Maneuvers are tricky though, as they could *each* act as prerequisites of the other. This seems to be explicitly allowed for later on, but I am not so sure about taking them initially (at the first level of Sword Sage, Crusader or Warblade, or when one takes the feat that gives one an extra maneuver or stance known). My instinct would be to allow "one way" prerequisites but not "two way" prerequisites when one is initially taking them.

 

[Corsair]

I've seen plenty of first level fighters with power attack and cleave (including the table on page 211 in PHB2). Sounds analagous.

 

[Corsair]

The way I have been doing it, you can't get a prestige class level at the same time as you get the BAB needed as a prerequisite for that prestige class (so one could not take Dwarven Defender at 7th character level, but must wait for 8th character level, because of the +7 BAB prerequisite).

That part is correct by the rules, because there is an order of operations laid out. You don't get the BAB from your DD level until you actually TAKE the level. And you can't take the level unless you have +7 BAB.

 

[irdeggman]

Everything is essentially gained at the same time (except for ability score increases).

The specific exception is for meeting meeting the prerequisites for a Prestige Class - you must meet them at the level before you take your first level of that prestige class.

As far as fetas go - a first level human fighter character can take the following feats:

Power Attack and Cleave at the same time, so could a human ranger or barbarian since they both get a +1 BAB at first level.

A monk gets either improved grapple or stunning fist at first level - since he also has IUS as a class ability at that level.

 

[Ambrus]

I found this in the SRD: "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." So that solves the issue for feats at least.

Although I can't think of any right now, I'm certain there must be other class abilities or mechanics that depend on acquiring prerequisites though. Would all such mechanics follow the feat model then?

Maneuvers are tricky though, as they could *each* act as prerequisites of the other. This seems to be explicitly allowed for later on

How are they explicitly allowed later on?

My instinct would be to allow "one way" prerequisites but not "two way" prerequisites when one is initially taking them.

My instinct would be to disallow such a thing since one can't qualify for either until one has at least one appropriate maneuver that doesn't require a prerequisite itself. So to take those two maneuvers I'd require a character to first take a third with no prerequisites.

 

[Artoomis]

This may help:

When leveling you do the following (in order):

See page 58 of the PHB.

1. Choose Class.
2. Increase BAB per the advanced class.
3. Increase base saves per the advanced class.
4. Increase ability score if at appropriate level.
5. Add new hit points per the advanced class.
6. Add skill points per the advanced class.
7. Add a feat if at the right level.
8. Add spells per the advanced class.
9. Add class features (such as bonus feats).

 

[Ambrus]

I'd been looking over that table; it's what governs when a character can qualify for a prestige class. Unfortunately it doesn't specify what to do in cases for steps that happen at the same time. For instance, adding maneuvers (all new maneuvers) is the final step in the process. :\

 

[starwed]

When leveling you do the following (in order):

Note that there's actually a different order for stuff you gain at 1st level (allowing you to take feats which have class abilities as prereqs.) But if you took your first level of cleric at level 3, you couldn't' take a divine feat at that level because you gain the ability to turn undead after you select your feats.

 

[Ambrus]

But if you took your first level of cleric at level 3, you couldn't' take a divine feat at that level because you gain the ability to turn undead after you select your feats.

Wow. That's such a subtle stipulation I wonder how many people are aware of it, let alone abide by it.