Ability Score Blues

WalterKovacs

First Post
Wizard - Either you want Int/Wis [which no race gives you, groan], or you want max int. The bonuses from wand/staff that use dex/con apply once per round, and outside of that, do not really come up for wizard powers. Wisdom gives you the powerful orb feature, and you have 2 at-wills, and some other effects that key off it, so it will at least come up. Maxing Int for wizard pays off because of multiple attacks making the "1 in 20" occur more often, also Int is boosting the two most important defences. [As in, most likely to be attacked. That order is AC > Ref > Fort > Will]

Warlock - Probably want to go CON [or CHA] + INT. Dropping your int too low not only hurts your reflex/AC, but your bonuses based on int are significant. You also don't get as many AoE, and you can attack will more than any other class, which means that against most monsters, you can easily target their weakest stat [that is feypact mostly]. The CON build can afford armor profs if they put just a little into str, so it can afford to be a bit lower in int. The Int bonus of powers doesn't necessarily come up that often, but there are some cases where it matters.

Warlord can't afford 20 str ... at least until the Bravura one in martial is released [who has no stat attached to his action point ability]. Many, if not all, of his powers trigger off his non-strength stat, so a 20 str, would leave his other stat significantly underpowered. A tactical warlord especially can even decrease the number of rolls they make over the course of an encounter with commander's strike, making the "1 in 20" occur even less often.

Rogue - Both non-Dex stats are effectively used to up the damage dealing potential of the rogue. Brutal Scoundrel are doing the damage whether it comes from str or dex, you could have 16/20 or 18/18 for a bugbear [or 16/18 vs. 14/20 for someone else] Either way the combined damage of dex + str is the same, it's the other stats that are effected. Ditto with Charisma and Sly Flourish. The argument for balancing out str and dex would be for basic attacks and str based attack powers the rogue has [riposte str, for example].

Ranger - Archer, again Dex = AC/Reflex, and twin strike [and company] = 1 in 20 hit more often. The wisdom based powers come up on occaission, but an elf can hit 16 to start and that's pretty good. TWF on the other hand has some problems. You need to invest in either dex or armor. It's not horrible, but it's not getting as much bang for your buck as high INT/DEX is.

Paladin - STR or CHA, you want wisdom for lay on hands, and lots of powers, for both sides, give bonuses based on wisdom. STR/WIS isn't as useful, as the at-will is a sly flourish situation where 18/16 vs. 20/14 would give you the same thing.

Fighter - Most/least complicated. Most effects boost his damage/to hit rolls based on his secondary stats, meaning he can just raise his str and lower it and get a similar effect [at the cost of tertiary stats].

Cleric - Sacred Flame like charisma. A number of healing powers key off charisma ... but they also key of wisdom, so while charisma is a good second stat, you don't necessarily have to buy it from the wisdom. However, going 20 in wisdom may make it hard to get the str/con good enough for better armor. For a str type, righteous brand doubles his value for the str by using str as it's "bonus". He can go with either charisma or wisdom as the second stat, but wisdom is the way to go as the charisma stuff ussually modifies healing powers which he would get the lore on anyway. The left overs can be put in con for the armor.

Swordmage - Thanks to blademaster you can go assault easily while maxing Int. Shielding you want to get your con up to get good absorbtion of damage, and unlike with the assault based powers, you aren't just doing more damage = str [which you'd be doing more damage with the int being higher anyway].

Ultimately, I guess that Warlord is the one class that can't really [yet] be played with a 20 in it's primary attack skill. It isn't the only build, but if you are focussing solely on two stats spending on 18/14 vs. 16/16 will ussually have the first as the better, if only because if a case of A + B added to damage, both combination of stats give the same number.
 

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Danceofmasks

First Post
@UngerheuerLich
I went first 'cos I'm convinced that party is so crazily strong that I'm happy to let you see "what to beat."
I did make a few mistakes, though ...
1) rain of blows for 9 fighter: I figured for a party of 4 (which includes a wizard), triple attacking a single target is better than sweeping blow. In hindsight, it really isn't ... the sweep is crazy-like-almost-always-hits and combos freakishly with come and get it.
2) skill training thievery for 5 ranger: sneak of shadows is way stronger.
3) split the tree for 1 ranger: I've always been somewhat dubious about that power .. really unsure if it belongs in an op build.
4) feat order for wizard: really should have improved initiative earlier, 'cos the opening is critical for a wiz.

@Walterkovacs
My wiz build pumps wis, and takes second implement - orb + spell focus (with a retrain) at 11th.
With a 20 build, +1/+2 wis bonus, plus the notable lack of conditions to inflict (pyromancers love flaming sphere) .. makes the staff nicer to have early.

Hmm warlord with 20 str ... do you accept genasi as a race?
I mean, it's not really core.
Lemme give it a go.

Array: 18 14 11 10 10 8; statline: 20 11 10 16 8 10
Tactical, of course. If you're crazy you could attempt an inspiring with a dragonborn, but ... it really is meh.
Heavy shield proficiency at level 1, use a longsword, wear hide armour (you're faster, better AC curve than chain), for AC 18.
Not fantastic, and will be eventually out-AC'ed by a prof cleric build, but costs fewer feats.
Take commander's strike anyway if a party member has a better basic attack hitroll than you (e.g. fighter). If there is such a character, go hammer and anvil .. otherwise, go warlord's favor. Lead the attack is icky enough with 16 int .. higher str means you get it going more often.
Shake it off is still the best option at 2, despite lack of cha.
Inspiring war cry at 3 .. again, less "tactical" but making saves are a win.
Stand the fallen at 5 ... umm, I'm making a habit of taking inspiring powers?

edit: warlord, not warlock
 
Last edited:

Milambus

First Post
Array: 18 14 11 10 10 8; statline: 20 11 10 16 8 10
Tactical, of course. If you're crazy you could attempt an inspiring with a dragonborn, but ... it really is meh.
Heavy shield proficiency at level 1, use a longsword, wear hide armour (you're faster, better AC curve than chain), for AC 18.
Not fantastic, and will be eventually out-AC'ed by a prof cleric build, but costs fewer feats.
Take commander's strike anyway if a party member has a better basic attack hitroll than you (e.g. fighter). If there is such a character, go hammer and anvil .. otherwise, go warlord's favor. Lead the attack is icky enough with 16 int .. higher str means you get it going more often.
Shake it off is still the best option at 2, despite lack of cha.
Inspiring war cry at 3 .. again, less "tactical" but making saves are a win.
Stand the fallen at 5 ... umm, I'm making a habit of taking inspiring powers?

edit: warlord, not warlock

IMO you drop shield completely for Warlord, pick up Spiked Chain Prof for now. Reach is key for a Warlord most of his Powers are melee weapon range.

After's this months DDI becomes official, I would swap that for the new Whip multiclass, weilding one in the off-hand and a longsword in the main hand. Or if you really wanted to more AC, then Whip/Shield. But I prefer to have the Whip and Heavy Blade Opportunist.
 

Danceofmasks

First Post
That's an interesting option .. safety from staying out of reach vs. safety from additional +2 AC/ref.
I guess it could work .. though a 20 str warlord is going to be hard-pressed to get 15 dex for HBO.
 

Milambus

First Post
That's an interesting option .. safety from staying out of reach vs. safety from additional +2 AC/ref.
I guess it could work .. though a 20 str warlord is going to be hard-pressed to get 15 dex for HBO.

True, my Tact Master only 18 str though which frees up some points. Going Eladrin my help also with their bonuses to INT and DEX which would be your secondaries.

Actually, with Commander's Strike and other powers that give your attack away, then I would say that Maximizing Str is not as important for a Warlord.
 

@UngerheuerLich
I went first 'cos I'm convinced that party is so crazily strong that I'm happy to let you see "what to beat."
I did make a few mistakes, though ...
1) rain of blows for 9 fighter: I figured for a party of 4 (which includes a wizard), triple attacking a single target is better than sweeping blow. In hindsight, it really isn't ... the sweep is crazy-like-almost-always-hits and combos freakishly with come and get it.
2) skill training thievery for 5 ranger: sneak of shadows is way stronger.
3) split the tree for 1 ranger: I've always been somewhat dubious about that power .. really unsure if it belongs in an op build.
4) feat order for wizard: really should have improved initiative earlier, 'cos the opening is critical for a wiz.

Hmm warlord with 20 str ... do you accept genasi as a race?
I mean, it's not really core.
Lemme give it a go.

so, i am trying to optimze my characters before i look at specific weaknesses... maybe i will adjust a bit then...

if you ask me if i accept a genasi, i would say yes, because i would use it for the same warlord (with a different array of course)

@ 4) hmmh somehow our reasonings are not that different ;)

I am really looking forward at the duell :)

but for now i think we should stick with core...

@ 3) don´t get me wrong: i will also do an primarily off build, just not totally off (right now i use the 16 16 10 8 + 14/10 or 12/12 or 11/13)

have a tactical warlord and a wizard in my team and i am searching for the right defender and striker ;)
 

Mengu

First Post
@UngerheuerLich
Tactical, of course. If you're crazy you could attempt an inspiring with a dragonborn, but ... it really is meh.

Warlord is a class that's highly dependent on party composition for efficiency. In a party of 4 where the other 3 member of your party are a charisma paladin, an archer ranger, and a wizard, the tactical warlord will just swing around a sword like a bad fighter. However if the party of 4 has a greatweapon fighter, a brutal scoundral rogue, and a two-weapon ranger, then the tactical warlord is going to be king. Also as the party size gets bigger and bigger, the inspiring warlord gets better. In a party of 6, the inspiring warlord has so many abilities that affect all allies, that those abilities see pretty optimal use.
 

Warlord is a class that's highly dependent on party composition for efficiency. In a party of 4 where the other 3 member of your party are a charisma paladin, an archer ranger, and a wizard, the tactical warlord will just swing around a sword like a bad fighter. However if the party of 4 has a greatweapon fighter, a brutal scoundral rogue, and a two-weapon ranger, then the tactical warlord is going to be king. Also as the party size gets bigger and bigger, the inspiring warlord gets better. In a party of 6, the inspiring warlord has so many abilities that affect all allies, that those abilities see pretty optimal use.

hmm yes, thats right... so i need to pick a rogue instead of my warlock i think... i am too tired...

@dance of masks: sry, i need to sleep first...

right now i try with:

elf wizard
eladrin warlord
dwarven paladin
and a warlock of undiscernible race (starpact) but this could become a halfling rogue easily...
 

Turtlejay

First Post
Wow, I don't want to interrupt this battle royale going down, I just think that going for an 18 costs an additional 7 points, that is very nearly 1/3 of your total point buy cost. With that same 7 points you could take a 10 to 15 and at 4th have a 16.

So, another +1 with your primary or a +3 with a secondary? If you were playing D&D the videogame then the answer is simple, but most of those secondary effects are most highlighted when the party plays as a team, such as the wizard pushing with thunderwave, or the warlord buffing, or the fighter being sticky. Sure, there are some builds that get around this, but IMO that should be the exception rather than the norm. If I was playing with a fighter who had neglected his stickyness just to get another +1 damage on a hit and left me, the squishy vulnerable, I would be pissed. Now I have a mook in my face and can't get off my area attack that does considerably more than 1 point of damage.

But I know this will get lost in the crossposting setting up for the cage match, it was mostly for my own sanity anyways.

Jay
 

Cadfan

First Post
Exactly. The cage match is likely to prove nothing, because of too many additional variables. And plus, sometimes a 20 is a good call- sometimes its not. If one side has to use all 20s, and the other side doesn't, its entirely possible that both sides are making at least some poorer characters, or, if both sides choose classes wisely, that neither side is making poor characters.

That's why I prefer the math. And the math says that the difference is largely trivial. +1 attack and damage simply isn't a big enough bonus to be capable of everything being attributed to it. And the diminishing returns of ability score point investment mean that the 18th point of your attack stat has to be worth about three to four times what you could get from a lesser stat. And that simply isn't always the case.
 

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