D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Maxperson]

You have had some good points in this thread, but this is not one of them.

I equate Tiefling to race because…it’s categorized in the game as a race. It’s not a feat any race can take. I don’t understand what’s difficult to grasp here.

Also your postulate about rare == charismatic is patently false. You cherry picked a few exceptions, but I would argue that in general being an outlier results in being shunned/feared/despised. But if you think otherwise I’m not interested in arguing the point.

In D&D race is really species. In reality there is only one species, which is why the claim or more or less charismatic is racism and wrong. We wouldn't be accused of racism for saying dolphins swim faster, because they're another species. We would be accused of racism if we said that a particular race humans could swim faster.

It's not the same thing as racism for the tiefling species to have a charisma bonus.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I do believe it's easier to point out the opposing end points, and then we can wade through 2000 posts on the matter I guess.

"Get rid of races completely because they're all identical" isn't the opposing end point in this case. It's a nonsense parade-of-horribles caricature.

I mean, I guess unless you want to say that your end of the spectrum is some kind of Nazi/Handmaid's Tale human-supremacist hellscape where all the other races are only allowed to play henchmen to the humans. Because if you're going to caricature one position to a ridiculous extreme, ya gotta be an equal opportunity fear-monger.

 

[ad_hoc]

I agree with your premise ad hoc. But can I be a little too picky. (Thank you in advance.)

They cannot do more by leaning back. The form they have allows for their greatest lift, hands down. Secondly, we should remember this is with a perfectly weighted barbell with perfect roundness for grip, and a smooth floor, etc. And that allows the form to be perfectly mechanical; a novelty that enables the lifter to lift way more than if it were a small boulder. Give that 120lb man a rough, imperfect, unbalanced boulder, and have him put it over his head. At absolute best, he will lift 225lbs or maybe 250lbs.

That's fair, I'm not an olympic weightlifting expert. There are strict rules though which do make it harder.

For example:

1.7.2 Any deliberate oscillation of the barbell to gain advantage. The athlete and the barbell have to become motionless before starting the jerk.

I don't think we're talking about holding a boulder straight over head with legs together and everything locked out either. You're right that the weight would be less but one thing with strongman competitions is that they don't have as many form rules as powerlifting and weightlifting competitions do.

 

[Scribe]

"Get rid of races completely because they're all identical" isn't the opposing end point in this case. It's a nonsense parade-of-horribles caricature.

I mean, I guess unless you want to say that your end of the spectrum is some kind of Nazi/Handmaid's Tale human-supremacist hellscape where all the other races are only allowed to play henchmen to the humans. Because if you're going to caricature one position to a ridiculous extreme, ya gotta be an equal opportunity fear-monger.

I'm not saying get rid of them?

I'm saying they are funny hats, aka: visually distinct, functionally the same.

(Accounting for again, the things like wings, etc).

 

[ad_hoc]

Why would you look at genetics as racist.

Tieflings are rare. It even says so. When something is rare, it often acquires some type of charismatic characteristic. Look at Shaq, look at tropes of dark hair and green eyes, look at conjoined twins, look at the butt on Kim Kardashian. All rare - all marveled at - all able to get a charisma boost from it.

The fact that you instantly equate a tiefling to a race, and not something novel, shows your limited field of vision.

Something to consider is that Charisma represents force of personality.

It is used to resist banishment which is in theme for a creature of extra-planar descent.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm not saying get rid of them?

I'm saying they are funny hats, aka: visually distinct, functionally the same.

(Accounting for again, the things like wings, etc).

This idea has been repeated several times now. My desire here is not necessarily to debunk the idea, but, rather, to point out that distinctions amount to more than visuals. Just because something is "functionally the same" in terms of mechanics does not necessarily mean that they are their distinctions amount to purely visuals as distinctions can also exist in the narrative space of the fiction.

There are a number of other non-D&D games where there is no real mechanical distinction between species or bioforms due to the nature of the system, but the idea that they are therefore just "humans in funny hats" doesn't really hold much water as far as the fiction goes.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm not saying get rid of them?

I'm saying they are funny hats, aka: visually distinct, functionally the same.

(Accounting for again, the things like wings, etc).

Sorry, not keeping track of exactly what each person says, but repeatedly in this thread people have predicted that where this all leads is a point where we may as well just get rid of races completely because there won't be any difference between them.

The claim that because racial ASIs are problematic, all racial mechanics are on the block is a parade-of-horribles argument. The same claims were made about changes to the description of orcs: "Where does this all end!?!?!?! We won't be allowed to kill green slimes, because they are people, too! We may as well play Myst!"

I don't think that's where things are going. I guess the best I can offer is that if the game is indeed heading to that extreme conclusion, kicking up a fuss on the forums about the first step isn't going to prevent it, or even slow it down.

 

[Maxperson]

"Get rid of races completely because they're all identical" isn't the opposing end point in this case. It's a nonsense parade-of-horribles caricature.

That's where your philosophy ends up, though. Right now it's +2 charisma that's the target, but any racial ability that is actually racial is the same thing. Elves get darkvision because genetics. Humans don't. That's racist according to you, because one race species has a genetic advantage over the another and in real life that has been used in racist acts.

Dwarven resilience? Racist, because they have a genetic advantage over other races.
Dwarven speed? They're victims of racism, because other races are genetically faster.

Once we've eliminated all genetic racial abilities, they all walk the same speed and just have cultural skills to differentiate them, they're all just "humans" that look different.

 

[Scribe]

This idea has been repeated several times now. My desire here is not necessarily to debunk the idea, but, rather, to point out that distinctions amount to more than visuals. Just because something is "functionally the same" in terms of mechanics does not necessarily mean that they are their distinctions amount to purely visuals as distinctions can also exist in the narrative space of the fiction.

There are a number of other non-D&D games where there is no real mechanical distinction between species or bioforms due to the nature of the system, but the idea that they are therefore just "humans in funny hats" doesn't really hold much water as far as the fiction goes.

That's fine for those other games.

In D&D, by the 5e book, there isn't much.

People have noted the following as concerning in this or similar threads.

ASI as racist.
Fluff descriptions as racist.
Cultural monoliths as racist.

Removing those (and AGAIN please do remove any racist descriptions like in Volos) leaves us, 5e D&D, with some small abilities, but even those (Luck, Cantrips, Orcs stand up) have been argued as something that should exist, so what's left? Appearance.

Even appearance was commented on as potential fetishism!

If people want to go down all those rabbit holes (2K posts multiple threads...) fine I guess, but I do see those as the most basic expression of the argument that has never been resolved, and I don't believe it's wrong, or a fallacy, or that I'm comparing to some Nazi hellscape (???) in pointing it out.

 

[Bill Zebub]

, but even those (Luck, Cantrips, Orcs stand up) have been argued as something that should exist, so what's left? Appearance.

I think you meant "shouldn't". In any event, a lot of crazy things "have been argued" by both sides, but it doesn't mean the crazies are right, or represent the larger group. My prediction is that we end up with no racial ASIs but more cool racial abilities that convey different concepts that used to be represented with ASIs.

or that I'm comparing to some Nazi hellscape (???) in pointing it out.

No, I don't think you're comparing anything to that. I'm saying that when two moderate positions are being contrasted, it's a common but logically weak rhetorical technique to take the opposing position to its extreme conclusion, but keep your own in its original, moderate form.