D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why couldn't you plan for it before? The only reason you spent a spell slot was because you suspected there were dragons in the area. You could plan for Dragons to be in the area without confirmation, just based on the information that led you to use Primeval Awareness.
You'd have to plan for everything in advance, since you don't know anything. There are spells and items that you might save or use differently if you KNEW a dragon was in the area. You might brainstorm ideas for a fey encounter. These things are just wastes of time if you don't know, since it's highly unlikely that either one is present at the moment you are passing through.
And how do you go about finding it? It could be six miles behind you, running away. It could be three miles in front of you, sleeping. It could be lurking 4 miles below you in inaccessible caverns. It could be a mile overhead observing you. It could be polymorphed into the horse you are riding. You have no possible way to use this information. And while it is "only 3rd level" Third level is chock full of actually useful abilities for most other classes.
That's not true. You can look for probable terrain. You can use spells. Maybe the eagle totem barbarian will use his sight to look. Maybe you have spells that can help. Maybe the fey are in that copse of woods over there. But go ahead and call it not just useless, but an actual detriment to the Ranger. I'll put it to good use in my game.
Which is why people did Math. Math to check their assumptions. Math which you don't engage in because you have a gut feeling the designers did something else.
Math can't confirm anything here. It's confirmation bias. They're assuming 65% is the base, so 16 checks out to meet 65% and the ACs are in line for 65% if you have a 16. The problem is that if you assume 60%, then a 14 checks out for 60% and the ACs are in line for 60% if you have a 14.

There's nothing other than their arbitrary selection of 65% that makes 16 the "baseline." The math only serves to confirm what they want to believe.
No, it isn't. It was based partially on the designers saying years ago that they wanted to have a more than 50% success rate, and 65% is comfortably between being too easy and too hard. Additionally, 16 is the number from dozens of different ways to calculate it. Your 14 is based solely on a gut feeling and the mistaken idea that pushing the scale downward was desirable to them, because you think 5e is easier than 3.5, so the numbers must be lowered.
So it could be 55%, 60%, 65%. 70%... They are still just arbitrarily selecting a percentage based on a vague designer statement from years ago.
Additionally, when talking about numbers less than a standard deviation apart, they are close enough to be considered equal, without needing to be identical. Heck, the true mathematical average could be 73.62487 but since you can't roll a decimal place it had to be rounded. Not being identical doesn't change anything, because I never claimed they were identical.
72 is not equal(not identical, equal) to 81, 76, 78 or any other number that isn't 72.
The game was designed at the collective level, with hundreds of thousands expected to play it. It is impossible to accurately predict what any five people will do when given 3 options, only one of which is static and the other random and the third controlled values. They couldn't possibly design the game with your assumptions. They had to take an aggregate value and work with the averages as an assumption.
If they include rolling, then they are including a method that they know will not produce average stats most of time given the small sample size. They deliberately give unequal methods of stat generation.
And your statement is farcical on the face of it, because rolling allows for massively powerful and massively weak characters. I've seen people roll where their modifiers were (+2, +1, +1, +0, -2, -1) and I've also seen them roll where they were (+4, +4, +3, +2, +2, +0). The entire point of rolling is the potential to get a far more powerful character than average, while risking getting a character weaker than average. But for that to be the case, an average must exist. And it does. The average doesn't suddenly disappear because no one rolled in when they rolled only four times. That's like saying that the chance of heads on a coin flip is 75% because you flipped four times and 3 of them were heads.
Me: "The methods are not equal because rolling at the group level produces wildly different characters from the array most of the time."

You: "That's a farce! They are equal(your claim), because I've seen people roll massively powerful and massively weak characters!!"

And the average does exist. It's called an array. It's the only way characters are going to average out in your lifetime. There's too much variation for a small sample size like a group to hit average when rolling.
Because that doesn't matter. Your "100's of years and many campaigns" is a red herring assuming that the average must show up at a specific table of 5 reliably to be a real factor. That isn't how probabilities work. The average of the dice doesn't care whether or not it shows up at your table, it exists despite your table. And since the designers can't predict what you will roll every single time, their best bet is to go with the average. Which we can see they clearly did.
Don't add in reliably to my argument. It's not going to show up at all at the group level.
They aren't entitled to Hp. They aren't entitled to AC. They aren't entitled that a positive modifier doesn't lower their roll because the DM decided that you have to roll under. The DM can decide that all monsters critically hit on a nat 1 and a nat 20, while players critically miss on a nat 20 and a nat 1.
This is all true, but at the bolded point the DM is violating the social contract regarding fairness, rather than just enacting reasonable house rules. Your disagreement with me on my house rule does not make it unreasonable. You just don't like the reason, and that's okay. Don't play in my game or one where you can't use an array.
I think you can see why I'd prefer to play with people who are slightly more judicious in which rules they change,
Yeah. Apparently it's because you like Slippery Slopes.

"The DM removing arrays, leads to taking away hit points and giving us a different system, which leads to taking away AC and giving us something else, which leads to the DM being a jerk and making it so monsters kill us and we can't kill the monsters, which leads to dogs and cats living together, which leads to complete anarchy!" Or else I just have a few house rules that are easy to learn.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

The current world record clean and jerk is 120lb man for 365lbs.

That is done under strict rules. They could lift more by cheating like leaning back to use pecs.

I can definitely believe in a fantasy world where a jacked halfling could do that.

If a humanan can get to 450+ lbs then a halfling can be 120lbs.

High level PCs are already super heroes why can't they lift a small Boulder too?
I agree with your premise ad hoc. But can I be a little too picky. (Thank you in advance.)

They cannot do more by leaning back. The form they have allows for their greatest lift, hands down. Secondly, we should remember this is with a perfectly weighted barbell with perfect roundness for grip, and a smooth floor, etc. And that allows the form to be perfectly mechanical; a novelty that enables the lifter to lift way more than if it were a small boulder. Give that 120lb man a rough, imperfect, unbalanced boulder, and have him put it over his head. At absolute best, he will lift 225lbs or maybe 250lbs.
 

As a DM, I will tag along any character concepts a player might come up with. One thing I will never do is to force someone to play a weakened character because:" reasons"....
Serious question: So when the fighter sees his damage output is half of the warlock or rogue, do you alter the character to not be "weakened?" I mean, the reasons are the rules built the fighter that way. But do you alter the fighter, like maybe give them a feat or magic item, so they can keep up?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Serious question: So when the fighter sees his damage output is half of the warlock or rogue, do you alter the character to not be "weakened?" I mean, the reasons are the rules built the fighter that way. But do you alter the fighter, like maybe give them a feat or magic item, so they can keep up?
I'm not Heldritch, but what I would do is talk to the player to see if he wants to continue with the fighter or make a different character. If he's really attached to the character and really is way behind the other PCs, then I would let him know that I would even things up a bit and to have some patience. The reason for the patience is that I'm not just going to drop a feat, item, new ability or whatever on him right then. I'm going to have to come up with whatever it is and then it's going to have to be woven into the game somehow.
 

I disagree. I think the whole point is to get away from the same old cliche character builds and encourage more exploration in character concepts.
With all due respect Bill, this never would have been brought to light were it not for a reflection on the mirrored-racist language used to describe some races. It never would have even been given consideration. But it did, and for some, this step is an example of not just shining the light, but shining high beams so one can see in the fog.
 

I think the answer is simpler than that.

Racist trope: “Some ethnic groups are naturally more charismatic than others. It’s not how their community raises them; it’s genetic.”

Example in D&D: “All Tieflings, regardless of background, get +2 Charisma.”

Ergo, removing that rule removes one instance of a racist trope. (It’s not the reason I personally dislike fixed ASIs…I just want flexibility in character creation. But it’s there.)

Of course, at this point in the debate I don’t expect anybody who is determined to defend fixed ASIs at all costs to acknowledge this point. Better to engage in semantic contortionism than to concede any point, right?
Why would you look at genetics as racist.

Tieflings are rare. It even says so. When something is rare, it often acquires some type of charismatic characteristic. Look at Shaq, look at tropes of dark hair and green eyes, look at conjoined twins, look at the butt on Kim Kardashian. All rare - all marveled at - all able to get a charisma boost from it.

The fact that you instantly equate a tiefling to a race, and not something novel, shows your limited field of vision.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think what you're doing here is a fallacy fallacy. If you think there is an issue with the logic then explain your reasoning for why that is.
As opposed to your fallacy fallacy fallacy? :p

In general, I am skeptical of false choices or dichotomies. There may be options in the middle or a spectrum of additional options apart from the two. Instead, the choices that I quoted are presented as a hardline either/or, which may or may not hold true with further scrutiny.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Why would you look at genetics as racist.

Tieflings are rare. It even says so. When something is rare, it often acquires some type of charismatic characteristic. Look at Shaq, look at tropes of dark hair and green eyes, look at conjoined twins, look at the butt on Kim Kardashian. All rare - all marveled at - all able to get a charisma boost from it.

The fact that you instantly equate a tiefling to a race, and not something novel, shows your limited field of vision.
You have had some good points in this thread, but this is not one of them.

I equate Tiefling to race because…it’s categorized in the game as a race. It’s not a feat any race can take. I don’t understand what’s difficult to grasp here.

Also your postulate about rare == charismatic is patently false. You cherry picked a few exceptions, but I would argue that in general being an outlier results in being shunned/feared/despised. But if you think otherwise I’m not interested in arguing the point.

P.S. Also, you missed the mark asking why I “see genetics as racist.” I don’t, and that was quite a leap getting there. I said that the Tiefling Cha mod was based on genetics, not background. The result, in this case, is a racist trope. But that is not saying that genetics is racist. I genuinely hope you understand the difference.
 
Last edited:

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
As opposed to your fallacy fallacy fallacy? :p

In general, I am skeptical of false choices or dichotomies. There may be options in the middle or a spectrum of additional options apart from the two. Instead, the choices that I quoted are presented as a hardline either/or, which may or may not hold true with further scrutiny.
As I noted earlier, some posters try to define a choice using the extreme ends of the spectrum, and others look for the tricky cases in the middle, and I think there’s a correlation to what the poster’s reason for participation is.
 

Scribe

Legend
As I noted earlier, some posters try to define a choice using the extreme ends of the spectrum, and others look for the tricky cases in the middle, and I think there’s a correlation to what the poster’s reason for participation is.
I present those 2 options, as fundamentally I believe that's what it boils down to.

Has some language been used poorly to describe some PC options? Yes. Remove that. Wizards shouldn't do that.

Is the concept itself, of humanoid fantasy creatures with different abilities, attributes, racist? That's up to the individual to decide.

I do believe it's easier to point out the opposing end points, and then we can wade through 2000 posts on the matter I guess. ;)
 

Remove ads

Top