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D&D 5E Ability Scores in 5e

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I have been complaining about the saves since the first playtest and warned of it before that.

Personally I like INT/illusions,logicalconfusiins,&feints and CHA/charms,mindlock,&possession.

I'd prefer if the six abilities had notable core bonuses in all pillars so a character could feel the strengths and penalties of having any of them low or high.
 

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I think class design should have two prime requisites for each class. Force the player to make a choice between two stats that can't fully be optimized; you'll end up with a much greater variety of PCs.

MAD isn't a disorder if everyone suffers from it.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
CHA exists as a dump stat because many DMs don't consider that an uncouth character can easily pull down the wrath of an unhinged or impatient noble, or other similar situation.

Sure an NPC can react poorly to an uncouth character, but the player should not expect to easily control a social situation when their character has poor social skills. The player should not try to misconstrue a penalty as a bonus.

Frankly I'm all for cha being the stat that governs fear checks so cha-dumping has an in combat consequence.
 

Bow_Seat

First Post
Sure an NPC can react poorly to an uncouth character, but the player should not expect to easily control a social situation when their character has poor social skills. The player should not try to misconstrue a penalty as a bonus.

Frankly I'm all for cha being the stat that governs fear checks so cha-dumping has an in combat consequence.

if every stat got tested as much as wis and dex, then no stat would be a dumpstat and every character would have an achilles heel (I say that as a good thing).
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
MAD issues were why subclasses had ability score requirements.

Also, Dex is way overloaded. There should be no initiative bonus due to DEX.

Where is Max. Languages Known? It's like they've practically removed languages from the game. INT could use the bump. And if they want, a Arcane magic-user limit on spells per level one can learn by INT. Clerics gain extra for high WIS.

CHA could also use Loyalty/Morale adjustments and changes to Henchmen/Followers.

I don't see why they don't put a few other things in with stuff like carrying capacity, jump checks, etc. Adding resurrection odds or system shock back in isn't that weighty a deal, is it?
 

Raith5

Adventurer
I still prefer static defenses (ala 4th) to saving throws for a variety of practical reasons. But I think whereas 4th had reflex as the higher of dex or int, I think it could be average of the two scores. Not only would this minimize the dump stat problem I also think it makes sense, for example, that to avoid a fireball it requires good reactions but also a strong sense of where one should jump.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Int: lore skills
Cha: social skills

So overall, Int and Cha are almost useless except for skills.

You forgot that Int and Cha are useful also for saving throws, but I think I have a legitimate concern over the designers ability to remember to modify spells which traditionally require a Wis ST to now more or less evenly require Wis, Int or Cha. My fear is that a lot of designers will just not be able to keep this in mind and still convert a lot of spells from previous editions from Will ST to Wis ST, so that we end with Wis be dominantly more useful.

Another possible concern is that lore and social skills are the kind of skills that often one PC in the group maximises and the other PCs just ignore. Technically, if you have 2 PCs with the same lore skill, your group can check twice on each piece of knowledge, and that's a good benefit (equivalent to advantage) so there is still a reason for multiple PCs to have the same lore skill. But IMXP it often happens that the group reasons like "we have Knowledge X covered already", and this is possibly even more common with social skills. OTOH, perception skills, physical skills, stealth skills and others are useful on an individual basis, which means their relevant abilities are generally more useful across different characters.

Ironically, thanks to the new Skill Mastery changes (which I really dislike), that makes them COMPLETELY useless for a rogue trained in those skills.

I agree...

This is IMHO a problem of the playtesting process as a whole. A vocal minority of the playtesters can come up with a comment or criticism that carries a certain "eureka" vibe, the listening designers think it's a great point that fixes one paradox and stop thinking about the issue because now they have the feeling that the fix is too cool not to take it in. Hopefully they start thinking again about the consequences of such fix...

It's really quite insane that to fix one small problem (a 1st-level Cleric being better at spotting traps than some 1st-level Rogues, if such Rogue has a low Wis) that eventually disappears after a few levels, as soon as the skill bonus increases, we have to take a consequence on the entire 'feel' of a character class... because this is exactly that: you can tell the difference between playing a PC where stat-dumping is easy if not the best choice, and a PC where you have to make trade-offs.
 

kerleth

Explorer
Having everyone have an achilles heel would be excellent. If there is no way to have an invincible character than the temptation to try to create one is gone. You just make one that is good at their thing. I'm really hoping the designers make sure that there are spells and monster abilities that affect more than just wis, con, and dex. I think that the saves should be intelligence for resisting confusion effects and charisma for resisting immobilizing and controlling "will save" effects. Wisdom should be for noticing illusions don't quite match up, and for noticing details and realizing things don't match up. I always though wisdom for realizing what's going on first or intelligence for thinking quickly on your feet made more sense for initiative than dexterity, but I think that's a sacred cow that won't be slain in the core rules. As far as the rogue. I played one over the weekend and I really dislike the change to skill mastery. Being able to put a +3 or my stat bonus made it feel like my ability scores, one of the chief tools of customization, just didn't matter. Since the PC max for scores is supposed to be 20, a +5, I'd be okay with a +0 to +2 bonus in skill mastery, so that you would be okay with your skill of choice no matter what. But it is not unlikely that your highest starting stat will only be a +3, which is no better than your generic rogue bonus. If they just make sure to keep the ability/skill check system "open" you could use intelligence or wisdom to find traps, snap an enemies weapon in half to use strength for intimidate, and the like, and this would take care of the "problem" some rogue players had in a much more generally applicable way.
 

Bow_Seat

First Post
I think that the skill mastery is probably one of the easiest things for the dev teak to tinker with. Maybe instead of making a minimum die roll mechanic they could use a minimum result mechanic. I'm not really sure if you can take away the entire thing and still have the rogue fulfill it's "best at skills" roll in the adventuring party.
 

kerleth

Explorer
Oh, I love the whole minimum die result of 10 thing. The idea that you don't make the stupid silly mistakes that other characters do when they roll a 1 is pure awesome. It's the replacing your ability scores bonus that I don't like. It seems to actually go counter to character customization, since it makes your ability scores matter less. If they turned it into a +0 minimum, so you could never stink at it, I would be okay with that.
 

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