D&D 5E Ability Scores in 5e

[ZombieRoboNinja]

So now's probably as good a time as any to evaluate how the six ability scores play out in 5e.

First off, every class now has one big, primary stat. Unlike in 3e, 5e rogues can completely ignore Int and Str without missing out on skill points or damage. Rogues use Dex, Fighters choose Dex or Str, Wizards and Warlocks use Int, Sorcerers use Cha, Clerics use Wis.

The only minor exception here is the two "hybrid" builds - war clerics and draconic sorcerers - who have to balance Str for melee against Wis/Cha for casting.

So everyone maxes one stat, determined by their class and/or build. Beyond that, what do the six scores do, beyond the obvious "bend bars with Str"?

Strength: resist forced movement; break grapples/binding; melee attacks; carrying capacity

Dex: Initiative; AC; reflex-style saves; escaping grapple; lots of skills; ranged and finesse melee attacks

Con: HP, fort-style saves

Int: lore skills

Wis: will-style saves, Perception, Insight

Cha: social skills

So overall, Int and Cha are almost useless except for skills. Ironically, thanks to the new Skill Mastery changes (which I really dislike), that makes them COMPLETELY useless for a rogue trained in those skills. Wisdom is important for saves vs. almost every mental spell effect, but also for Perception, possibly the most universally important skill in the game.

Meanwhile, Dex is useful for anyone, and near essential for anyone who expects to be in combat without heavy armor. Con is, as always, everyone's second-most-important stat, just for the HP. Strength is situational; it might occasionally suck to miss a Strength save or check, but it's mostly optional.

What does this all add up to? Well, first off, min-maxing. Why should a rogue in a point-buy system have higher than a 6 in Int, Cha, or Str?

Personally, I think the Wis saves should be broken up further. The flavor text for the ability scores suggests that Int and Cha should sometimes be used to resist spells; how about Int is the save for illusion spells (to cleverly see through them)?

Second, initiative. IIRC, in 4e you could choose between Int and Dex for this one. Would there be a downside to this for 5e?

Third, roll back the Skill Mastery changes. A rogue with 8 Wis trained in Perception still has a minimum roll of 12 for that skill, which is pretty nice IMHO.

Beyond that, watch out for MAD in future classes. It makes sense that hybrid classes need two main stats, but more than that is probably overdoing it.

Any other thoughts/arguments/ideas?

 

[Bow_Seat]

I don't see a problem with a 6 str/int/cha thief

I like int/dex for initiative

I like splitting up more will saves but I understand why they didn't (it makes wizards really powerful if they metagame)

rogue skill mastery needs to be lower (8 or 10 min before bonus)

being MAD with 2 stats isn't bad, though 3 is crippling.

 

[Stormonu]

Illisions being vs. Int wouldn't be a bad idea, nor would Charms/Compulsions vs. Charisma.

Like many things, the usefulness of an ability will strongly depend on the game being played. Charisma will be dump stat for hack'n'slash, and Strength would be for a Court intrigue-based game.

 

[BobTheNob]

I would actually speculate that Con is more important than ever before thanks to HP thresholds. Its not just damage capacity any more, its now also resist everything.

On another note, wasnt the intention that there was to be saves related to every stat. That yes, Int and Chr would both have saves and therefore not be dump stats? (Note : Havent scanned the docco's for affirmation of this).

 

[jsaving]

Ironically, thanks to the new Skill Mastery changes (which I really dislike), that makes them COMPLETELY useless for a rogue trained in those skills.

No irony here -- playtesters demanded this change because they felt rogues should be able to dump-stat INT/WIS/CHA and still do well at traditional thief skills. Like you, I thought it was a bad idea then and an even worse idea now, but it's very much a feature rather than a bug.

 

[cmbarona]

On another note, wasnt the intention that there was to be saves related to every stat. That yes, Int and Chr would both have saves and therefore not be dump stats? (Note : Havent scanned the docco's for affirmation of this).

I guess it depends on how you define "save." For the most part, people tend to use it to refer to the ability to resist a spell. In that context, I agree that the INT/illusion, CHA/charm idea is good. But it looks like they want to expand the idea of a save to incorporate any circumstance that gets you out of potential danger. Check out "How to Play." Under each ability, it lists possible situations that call for a save using that ability. And yes, spells or other "magical" effects are supposed to fall under INT and CHA. CHA specifically lists "magical compulsions" under its list of potential saves.

Some of this is just going to come down to DM styles, as unfortunate as that can potentially be. CHA exists as a dump stat because many DMs don't consider that an uncouth character can easily pull down the wrath of an unhinged or impatient noble, or other similar situation. I played the Game of Thrones RPG once, and they have an Intrigue system as a form of social combat; the idea is that a social interaction can be just as deadly as an armed encounter. Given the hack-and-slashiness of a lot of D&D groups, it was quite refreshing. I'd love to see D&D implement something similar, but the closest they've come is the skill challenges of 4e.

 

[Bow_Seat]

No irony here -- playtesters demanded this change because they felt rogues should be able to dump-stat INT/WIS/CHA and still do well at traditional thief skills. Like you, I thought it was a bad idea then and an even worse idea now, but it's very much a feature rather than a bug.

I for one think it's a necessary change since rogues would be 6xMAD if they had to actually have the stats to be good at their multitude of skills. And since the dev team has set up the rogue to be the "best at skills" he needs to be damn good with his skills.

Also, things like sneak, which is on of the rogues trademarks, requires a check even round when moving and scouting ahead. It's hard enough that he has to make it to cover each turn just to try and hide in the first place (not that this is unreasonable, form a logic standpoint). Also, if you are really being a stickler, then he needs to find a way to stay hidden during his entire movement if you look at the RAW for stealth. If the rogue had a serious (>10%) chance of failure on any one stealth check, having the rogue scout ahead would be suicide based just upon the idea that he would surely fail at least one roll on average and be spotted out by the monsters.

 

[Bow_Seat]

I guess it depends on how you define "save." For the most part, people tend to use it to refer to the ability to resist a spell. In that context, I agree that the INT/illusion, CHA/charm idea is good. But it looks like they want to expand the idea of a save to incorporate any circumstance that gets you out of potential danger. Check out "How to Play." Under each ability, it lists possible situations that call for a save using that ability. And yes, spells or other "magical" effects are supposed to fall under INT and CHA. CHA specifically lists "magical compulsions" under its list of potential saves.

Some of this is just going to come down to DM styles, as unfortunate as that can potentially be. CHA exists as a dump stat because many DMs don't consider that an uncouth character can easily pull down the wrath of an unhinged or impatient noble, or other similar situation. I played the Game of Thrones RPG once, and they have an Intrigue system as a form of social combat; the idea is that a social interaction can be just as deadly as an armed encounter. Given the hack-and-slashiness of a lot of D&D groups, it was quite refreshing. I'd love to see D&D implement something similar, but the closest they've come is the skill challenges of 4e.

if something is targeting your mental stats then it probably falls under one of the following categories for saves:

save with INT if you are being confused
int lets you follow patterns and think your way out of a maze/puzzle
save with WIS if you are being deceived
wis lets you perceive that you are being tricked or mislead
save with CHA if you are being controlled
cha lets you exert your own free will and presence of being

 

[triqui]

double post :/

 

[triqui]

I agree that they should increase the number of save throws for non-classic saving stats. INT, CHA, and STR need to be checked much more.

 

[Minigiant]

I have been complaining about the saves since the first playtest and warned of it before that.

Personally I like INT/illusions,logicalconfusiins,&feints and CHA/charms,mindlock,&possession.

I'd prefer if the six abilities had notable core bonuses in all pillars so a character could feel the strengths and penalties of having any of them low or high.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I think class design should have two prime requisites for each class. Force the player to make a choice between two stats that can't fully be optimized; you'll end up with a much greater variety of PCs.

MAD isn't a disorder if everyone suffers from it.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

CHA exists as a dump stat because many DMs don't consider that an uncouth character can easily pull down the wrath of an unhinged or impatient noble, or other similar situation.

Sure an NPC can react poorly to an uncouth character, but the player should not expect to easily control a social situation when their character has poor social skills. The player should not try to misconstrue a penalty as a bonus.

Frankly I'm all for cha being the stat that governs fear checks so cha-dumping has an in combat consequence.

 

[Bow_Seat]

Sure an NPC can react poorly to an uncouth character, but the player should not expect to easily control a social situation when their character has poor social skills. The player should not try to misconstrue a penalty as a bonus.

Frankly I'm all for cha being the stat that governs fear checks so cha-dumping has an in combat consequence.

if every stat got tested as much as wis and dex, then no stat would be a dumpstat and every character would have an achilles heel (I say that as a good thing).

 

[howandwhy99]

MAD issues were why subclasses had ability score requirements.

Also, Dex is way overloaded. There should be no initiative bonus due to DEX.

Where is Max. Languages Known? It's like they've practically removed languages from the game. INT could use the bump. And if they want, a Arcane magic-user limit on spells per level one can learn by INT. Clerics gain extra for high WIS.

CHA could also use Loyalty/Morale adjustments and changes to Henchmen/Followers.

I don't see why they don't put a few other things in with stuff like carrying capacity, jump checks, etc. Adding resurrection odds or system shock back in isn't that weighty a deal, is it?

 

[Raith5]

I still prefer static defenses (ala 4th) to saving throws for a variety of practical reasons. But I think whereas 4th had reflex as the higher of dex or int, I think it could be average of the two scores. Not only would this minimize the dump stat problem I also think it makes sense, for example, that to avoid a fireball it requires good reactions but also a strong sense of where one should jump.

 

[Li Shenron]

Int: lore skills
Cha: social skills

So overall, Int and Cha are almost useless except for skills.

You forgot that Int and Cha are useful also for saving throws, but I think I have a legitimate concern over the designers ability to remember to modify spells which traditionally require a Wis ST to now more or less evenly require Wis, Int or Cha. My fear is that a lot of designers will just not be able to keep this in mind and still convert a lot of spells from previous editions from Will ST to Wis ST, so that we end with Wis be dominantly more useful.

Another possible concern is that lore and social skills are the kind of skills that often one PC in the group maximises and the other PCs just ignore. Technically, if you have 2 PCs with the same lore skill, your group can check twice on each piece of knowledge, and that's a good benefit (equivalent to advantage) so there is still a reason for multiple PCs to have the same lore skill. But IMXP it often happens that the group reasons like "we have Knowledge X covered already", and this is possibly even more common with social skills. OTOH, perception skills, physical skills, stealth skills and others are useful on an individual basis, which means their relevant abilities are generally more useful across different characters.

Ironically, thanks to the new Skill Mastery changes (which I really dislike), that makes them COMPLETELY useless for a rogue trained in those skills.

I agree...

This is IMHO a problem of the playtesting process as a whole. A vocal minority of the playtesters can come up with a comment or criticism that carries a certain "eureka" vibe, the listening designers think it's a great point that fixes one paradox and stop thinking about the issue because now they have the feeling that the fix is too cool not to take it in. Hopefully they start thinking again about the consequences of such fix...

It's really quite insane that to fix one small problem (a 1st-level Cleric being better at spotting traps than some 1st-level Rogues, if such Rogue has a low Wis) that eventually disappears after a few levels, as soon as the skill bonus increases, we have to take a consequence on the entire 'feel' of a character class... because this is exactly that: you can tell the difference between playing a PC where stat-dumping is easy if not the best choice, and a PC where you have to make trade-offs.

 

[kerleth]

Having everyone have an achilles heel would be excellent. If there is no way to have an invincible character than the temptation to try to create one is gone. You just make one that is good at their thing. I'm really hoping the designers make sure that there are spells and monster abilities that affect more than just wis, con, and dex. I think that the saves should be intelligence for resisting confusion effects and charisma for resisting immobilizing and controlling "will save" effects. Wisdom should be for noticing illusions don't quite match up, and for noticing details and realizing things don't match up. I always though wisdom for realizing what's going on first or intelligence for thinking quickly on your feet made more sense for initiative than dexterity, but I think that's a sacred cow that won't be slain in the core rules. As far as the rogue. I played one over the weekend and I really dislike the change to skill mastery. Being able to put a +3 or my stat bonus made it feel like my ability scores, one of the chief tools of customization, just didn't matter. Since the PC max for scores is supposed to be 20, a +5, I'd be okay with a +0 to +2 bonus in skill mastery, so that you would be okay with your skill of choice no matter what. But it is not unlikely that your highest starting stat will only be a +3, which is no better than your generic rogue bonus. If they just make sure to keep the ability/skill check system "open" you could use intelligence or wisdom to find traps, snap an enemies weapon in half to use strength for intimidate, and the like, and this would take care of the "problem" some rogue players had in a much more generally applicable way.

 

[Bow_Seat]

I think that the skill mastery is probably one of the easiest things for the dev teak to tinker with. Maybe instead of making a minimum die roll mechanic they could use a minimum result mechanic. I'm not really sure if you can take away the entire thing and still have the rogue fulfill it's "best at skills" roll in the adventuring party.

 

[kerleth]

Oh, I love the whole minimum die result of 10 thing. The idea that you don't make the stupid silly mistakes that other characters do when they roll a 1 is pure awesome. It's the replacing your ability scores bonus that I don't like. It seems to actually go counter to character customization, since it makes your ability scores matter less. If they turned it into a +0 minimum, so you could never stink at it, I would be okay with that.