D&D 5E About Morally Correct Outcomes in D&D Adventures [+]

[Irlo]

War. War never changes. Oh, wait, that's Fallout, not Star Wars.

But the point is that there are casualties in war, sometimes those casualties are innocent bystanders. Well, that and without knowing very specific details such as how much of the death star's debris would have stayed in Endor's gravity well, what the mass of the death star was, what materials were used etc..

A significant amount of debris did not end up on Endor, depending on many factors, most of the debris could have landed in an ocean on the other side of the planet. Or maybe the little cannibalistic teddy bears all died horrifically.

That doesn't make the Rebel Alliance's actions evil, it just means there is always collateral damage in wartime.

Judging by all the bricks and detritus just floating in the trash compactor, I’d say the Death Star debris has fairly low mass.

 

[Blue Orange]

The 'golden ending' (morally correct, victorious-seeming, etc.) probably is sensible for WoTC to include given they are going for a wide audience. There have been modules for games like Call of Cthulhu that have forced parties to do something morally objectionable (perform human sacrifice or let the monster out and kill more people), but those have a consciously darker tone.

Different 'ratings' might also be a good thing, for those who want to grapple with moral dilemmas like that.

The TSR Code of Ethics from the 1980s forbade portraying law enforcement dying in the line of duty unless they were evil, if you want to get an idea of how fast things change. (But they did ban 'ridicule or attack on any racial or religious group', 'disparaging references to physical afflictions or deformities', and 'rape or seduction', which would fit modern standards even though different words would certainly be used.) The 1990s version said you 'couldn't promote distrust of law enforcement', and had similar prohibitions against negative depictions of (actual) racial or religious minorities or rape.

RPG History: TSR's Code of Ethics (D&D "Comics Code Authority" rules) - SHANE PLAYS

UPDATE: Wargaming and RPG historian Jon Peterson of Playing at the World provided an additional version of TSR’s guidelines from 1982 after this post was initially published, so we now have documents from both 1982 and 1994. Thanks, Jon! Did you know that TSR (the company that first published...

shaneplays.com

Spoiler: explicit description of material in recent module

As an example of how these things change, Dungeon of the Mad Mage has a BDSM playroom--but F/m and F/f only. It is played for laughs.

Dragon Heist has a polyamorous 'throuple'. Both Dragon Heist and Dungeon of the Mad Mage have LGBT characters.

 

[Faolyn]

War. War never changes. Oh, wait, that's Fallout, not Star Wars.

But the point is that there are casualties in war, sometimes those casualties are innocent bystanders. Well, that and without knowing very specific details such as how much of the death star's debris would have stayed in Endor's gravity well, what the mass of the death star was, what materials were used etc..

A significant amount of debris did not end up on Endor, depending on many factors, most of the debris could have landed in an ocean on the other side of the planet. Or maybe the little cannibalistic teddy bears all died horrifically.

That doesn't make the Rebel Alliance's actions evil, it just means there is always collateral damage in wartime.

Right. The problem comes when you reduce Star Wars to black-and-white morality instead of shades of gray.

 

[Oofta]

Right. The problem comes when you reduce Star Wars to black-and-white morality instead of shades of gray.

Andor was really good at showing some of the complexity of fomenting a revolution, I enjoyed it.

 

[Steampunkette]

Right. The problem comes when you reduce Star Wars to black-and-white morality instead of shades of gray.

Consequentialism.

Not black and white, which is generally considered to be Deontology.

 

[Faolyn]

Andor was really good at showing some of the complexity of fomenting a revolution, I enjoyed it.

I loved that show. It won the "droid I most want to hug" award, hands down.

 

[Faolyn]

Consequentialism.

Not black and white, which is generally considered to be Deontology.

If you say so. I don't care much for philosophy. Gimme something with tests and double-blind trials any day.

 

[Blue Orange]

I thought deontology was rule-based ethics, not necessarily black-and-white? You could have conflicting duties (Hamlet comes to mind as one most Westerners would be familiar with).

Amusingly while shades of grey can be constructed for moral dilemmas in the Star Wars universe as of any other, it actually does have literal objective good and evil in terms of the dark and light sides of the Force!

 

[Oofta]

I thought deontology was rule-based ethics, not necessarily black-and-white? You could have conflicting duties (Hamlet comes to mind as one most Westerners would be familiar with).

Amusingly while shades of grey can be constructed for moral dilemmas in the Star Wars universe as of any other, it actually does have literal objective good and evil in terms of the dark and light sides of the Force!

Or does it? Are the dark and light sides of the force just propaganda that has been pushed by the Jedi so that people don't question them?

In any case I don't have a problem with black and white most of the time, it makes the gray areas stand out.

 

[Clint_L]

I thought deontology was rule-based ethics, not necessarily black-and-white? You could have conflicting duties (Hamlet comes to mind as one most Westerners would be familiar with).

Amusingly while shades of grey can be constructed for moral dilemmas in the Star Wars universe as of any other, it actually does have literal objective good and evil in terms of the dark and light sides of the Force!

Strictly speaking, deontological ethics involves rules that are held to be logical proofs - Immanuel Kant thought that they were just as ironclad as mathematical proofs. His test of whether or not an action is ethically permissible was to imagine a world in which anyone could do it whenever they wanted. If a reasonable person would not want to live in such a world, then the action is not ethically permissible. Not even once. No exceptions under any circumstances. That's what he called the categorical imperative, and why deontological ethics are considered black and white.

So if you are wondering whether it is okay to steal a few dollars from the cash register at work, you have to imagine a world where everyone could do that any time they felt like it. If that seems like a bad idea, then the action is unethical, and you should not do it. Period. Even if you desperately need the money for medicine to save your sick child. No exceptions.

Edit: the difference between deontology and other rules-based ethics is in how the rules are derived. Deontology is supposedly based on universal ethical laws - the categorical imperative. Other rules-based moralities tend to be rooted in virtues ethics, meaning that an authority figure has handed down a list of rules (e.g. the Ten Commandments). The point is that deontological ethics are intended to be universal and objective, whereas virtues-derived ethics are culturally specific and subjective.