About the myth or fact (?) of needing magical items

[Thanee]

Also if you realy think casters are unbalanced with low magic then eliminate casting in melee with a concentration check. Make it an auto fail if you get hit, just like in earlier editions. And if you really want to then get rid of the 5ft step too. Watch the casters fall like bowling pins and all beg to be low magic campaign fighters.

Or rather watch the casters pick up Tumble and/or show the low magic campaign fighters how damn good AC 30+ (and total concealment and ...) is in melee when they can hardly get beyond 20.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Runesong42]

I am currently running a low-magic item/low magic solo 3.x campaign. To be fair, the PC is a half-celestial Paladin/Thief (using the gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana and ignoring the concept of 'alignment') which grants him numerous benefits.

He has just become 8th level, and so far, he has found a magic sword (+2 keen longsword of shock), a suit of magic armour (breastplate +2), and a few minor toys that do not improve him from a tactical standpoint (ie. no bonuses to hit, defense, damage, saves, or any direct damage attacks).

The only reason he even has those is because of pre-gen adventures I've run from Dungeon magazines.

He also has a cast of NPC from which he can customize a party of up to four, at any time. They are also gestalts, and all of them have some magical ability. They're pretty light on the items as well.

Now, it could be because I am used to judging challenges, or it could be because he hasn't yet been adequately challenged, and I'm sure it's partly because he is an amazing tactician IRL, but he has yet to actually suffer as a result of being "under-powered".

Based on my experiences as a whole, what more do PC's need than:
- a magic melee weapon
- a magic ranged weapon
- a magical means of defense (be it armour, shield, or protective item)
- some means of magical healing, renewable or not (be it scroll, wand, potion, etc.)

Everything else is just 'toys' to me... giving the PC's abilities they wouldn't normally have, but aren't necessary useful. Lighting PC's up like a Chrismas tree accompishes exactly that... lots of flair, pretty to look at, but what does it do but stand there and look pretty?

 

[ThirdWizard]

He has just become 8th level, and so far, he has found a magic sword (+2 keen longsword of shock), a suit of magic armour (breastplate +2), and a few minor toys that do not improve him from a tactical standpoint (ie. no bonuses to hit, defense, damage, saves, or any direct damage attacks).

Just to be sure, he's ECL 12 right? He has equivalent gear of a 9th level character, so if he's ECL 8, that wouldn't be a low magic game. Indeed, even if he is 12th level, the gestalt + special abilities will probably help him overcome the lower amount of wealth. That would be a decent compromise for a low magic campaign, less magical items but gestalt instead.

As for the "extra" thing, means of locomotion is important at higher levels, when you run into flyers. Things that help saves are usually some of the first things my players look for, especially those that multiclass something with the same poor saves. Something that gives darkvision is very nice for those without it. Then things that increase checks, such as luck stones, ioun stones. Of course, boots of speed or striding and springing are great! Cloaks of Displacement, too.

Don't underestemate how much some magical items can help a smart player.

 

[delericho]

Based on my experiences as a whole, what more do PC's need than:
- a magic melee weapon
- a magic ranged weapon
- a magical means of defense (be it armour, shield, or protective item)
- some means of magical healing, renewable or not (be it scroll, wand, potion, etc.)

Depends how you define 'need'. The typical (normal magic) fighter will have the magic melee and missile weapons, multiple defensive items (armour, shield, amulet, ring, ioun stone - depending on level), stat boosting items (belt of giant strength, maybe an amulet of health, or gloves of dex, or...), save boosting items (cloak of resistance), items of mobility (winged boots, boots of speed, slippers of spider climbing). Adding any or all of these items makes a huge difference to the power level of the character.

By contrast, the wizard is much less reliant on magic items to be effective. If you put a low-magic fighter up against a low-magic wizard at 8th level or so, assuming the wizard doesn't just end the fight with a hold person spell, he is still likely to make use of greater invisibility followed by fly to become undetectable by the fighter, and impossible to reach in any case. From there, the wizard can just fly over the battlefield and destroy the fighter with his damaging spells of choice.

True, it's not a foregone conclusion - if the fighter gets the initiative, and can ready an action such that the wizard can't cast, the fighter has a chance. However, it is not the case that the fighter can win the combat through clever tactics. It's pure luck - win initiative, or you're dead.

 

[Sammael]

Okay i have to say something here. The beholder didnt do anything and your 14th level party barely beat a bunch of grimlocks equivelent to 8th level characters? The fault here didnt lie with the magic items. It was with the players. Thats just rediculous. The players should have had boatloads more HP, BAB's at least 5 higher, almost certainly better base armor then them without magic and thus higher AC's. That battle should have been a cakewalk for them.

It should have, but it wasn't. Oh, did I forget to mention that they were fighting in darkness? Naturally, all PCs (five humans and a halfling) had magic items on them that grant darkvision. It took them a round to light torches (everburning torches don't work in antimagic, either). During this time, enraged grimlocks (who were barbarian 6, not fighter 6, sorry - I just double-checked) attacked with greataxes and power attack at +12/+7, for 1d12+11 points of damage. There were five grimlocks, and they had a pretty good chance of hitting just about every PC (the highest AC at the time was the party's main tank, with a +1 full plate and a +3 tower shield; without his deflection and natural armor bonuses, his AC was 23 - quite easy for grimlocks to achieve with primary attacks even after the light was lit).

And that's just one example of how PCs without magic are screwed. It didn't have to be antimagic; the party wizard could have cast mass darkvision, and an NPC equal to beholder's CR could have cast greater dispel magic on them.

 

[delericho]

It should have, but it wasn't. Oh, did I forget to mention that they were fighting in darkness?

Yes, you did, and it makes a huge difference. That's at least a round of actions lost, where the enemy are unimpeded and the PCs are seriously hampered. (Incidentally, your DM was pretty kind about the situation - I would have thought retrieving torches and flint and steel from packs, and then lighting the torches should take more than one round, especially when done in darkness.)

Naturally, all PCs (five humans and a halfling) had magic items on them that grant darkvision. It took them a round to light torches (everburning torches don't work in antimagic, either). During this time, enraged grimlocks (who were barbarian 6, not fighter 6, sorry - I just double-checked)

This also makes a big difference - NPC barbarians are generally tougher fights that NPC fighters, since they can use their 1/day rage in every combat they are seen in (usually, only one), and since the combat is likely to end before the rage expires. The fighter's feats are generally less powerful, but last all day.

attacked with greataxes and power attack at +12/+7, for 1d12+11 points of damage. There were five grimlocks,

A grimlock barbarian 6 is CR 7. A beholder is CR 13. You say he didn't do anything except use his anti-magic cone, but that is effective action - it removes the party items, puts the party at a severe tactical disadvantage, and nerfs the part wizard. Basically, it's an EL 14 or 15 encounter, which should be an effective challenge for 4 14th level characters, and leaning towards the deadly. Sounds about right to me.

Furthermore, the encounter was set up in such a way as to favour the enemy quite heavily. The enemy are pretty well optimised for the situation (stat boosts not reliant on magic, no magic of their own, melee combat types, able to see in the dark). This is not a flaw in the encounter - a beholder is likely to do just such things - but it does explain why it was so tough.

To be honest, I think this encounter went as I would expect.

and they had a pretty good chance of hitting just about every PC (the highest AC at the time was the party's main tank, with a +1 full plate and a +3 tower shield; without his deflection and natural armor bonuses, his AC was 23 - quite easy for grimlocks to achieve with primary attacks even after the light was lit).

And that's just one example of how PCs without magic are screwed. It didn't have to be antimagic; the party wizard could have cast mass darkvision, and an NPC equal to beholder's CR could have cast greater dispel magic on them.

Of course, the example is also not really a good indicator of how a low-item game would function, anyway. The anti-magic cone not only wipes out your items, but also the party wizard. This probably explains a lot of why you suffered so badly. If you remove the items but continue to allow spellcasting to function, the battle would work out rather differently.

 

[Sammael]

Ahem... I was the DM.

Your points are valid. However, the example was given to illustrate that magic is practically necessary for characters to deal with certain types of encounters. Your bottom line - that the spellcasters would have made this encounter much easier - reinforces the notion that non-spellcasters need magic items to be on par with spellcasters.

Just for fun, the party monk/argent disciple saved the day. He ran outside the range of beholder's antimagic cone, turned into a silver dragon (class feature of the argent disciple), flew behind the beholder, and grappled him in mid air. I then allowed him to make grapple checks to rotate the beholder so that the antimagic eye was away from the party. He survived beholder's multiple disintegrate and flesh to stone attempts by virtue of his monkishly good saves. It was a pretty memorable encounter (even if I had to bend the rules slightly to allow him to rotate the beholder).

Once the antimagic was gone, grimlocks were taken care of in a single round.

 

[delericho]

Ahem... I was the DM.

Sorry, I didn't notice that.

You were pretty kind about the situation - you could very easily have ruled that it took them several rounds to dig out their torches and flint & steel, and then light the torches, especially when doing it in the dark

Out of interest, roughly how much of the party's resources were depleted by the fight? Presumably, since there was an anti-magic cone in effect, the spellcasters didn't use up any of their spells, and no potions/scrolls/wands were depleted in the fight itself. Once you factor in the greater need for healing once the fight was done, would you say that this was about right for the EL of the encounter? (Also, you said that the entire party nearly died, but did anyone actually die? And did you feel the need to fudge the dice rolls to prevent that happening, or did you let the dice lie as they fell?)

 

[Sammael]

Sorry, I didn't notice that.

No prob, it was easy to miss.

You were pretty kind about the situation - you could very easily have ruled that it took them several rounds to dig out their torches and flint & steel, and then light the torches, especially when doing it in the dark

IIRC, the party wizard had a torch in his handy haversack.

Out of interest, roughly how much of the party's resources were depleted by the fight? Presumably, since there was an anti-magic cone in effect, the spellcasters didn't use up any of their spells, and no potions/scrolls/wands were depleted in the fight itself. Once you factor in the greater need for healing once the fight was done, would you say that this was about right for the EL of the encounter? (Also, you said that the entire party nearly died, but did anyone actually die? And did you feel the need to fudge the dice rolls to prevent that happening, or did you let the dice lie as they fell?)

Nobody died, and, other than hit points, no resources were depleted (other than monk's 1/day silver dragon shape ability). I don't recall fudging any rolls, because I rarely do so these days (I implemented the Fate Point system for PCs with the intention of replacing any fudging on my part).

 

[delericho]

Based on my experiences as a whole, what more do PC's need than:
- a magic melee weapon
- a magic ranged weapon

One other thing about this: they have to be the right weapons. If the fighter is specialised in the use of the spiked chain, then supplying him with a magic longsword is of little use - he has to choose between using a non-magic weapon or not using some of his most powerful feats. This in turn requires the DM to either place a magic spiked chain in the treasure where he probably would not have done so otherwise (possibly stretching versimilitude), allow the fighter to buy such an item, but not others (likewise), or prevent the fighter from getting a magical version of his weapon of choice (and thus penalising the fighter relative to the wizard). If the latter approach is taken, the player of the fighter is essentially forced to guess which weapons are going to have magical versions available, and must do so early in the game (since Exotic Weapon Proficiency is one of the best feats to take at 1st level, and Weapon Focus is a feat he'll want to take early as well).

By contrast, the wizard has the ability to make whatever magic items he wants. Even if the DM disallows the choice of many of the magic item creation feats, they must exist in some form for the items to exist at all. If they're available, the wizard has control over just what items he makes, which is always preferable to the hit-and-miss approach of getting what you find*. It is true that the wizard could make items for the fighter to use. However, that is at the whim of the wizard's player, which in turn makes his character more powerful.

* Compare with the difference between 4d6 drop lowest and 25-point buy for stat generation. 4d6 is likely to result in higher stats over all, but with less control. By contrast, point buy leads to slightly lower stats, but more control, which tends to lead to more power overall, as it allows the designation of a 'dump stat' where 4d6 might not.