Abstract Wealth Systems - yes or no?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Until recently, I was leery of abstracting character wealth. I started role-playing with Shadowrun 1st edition and later progressed to AD&D2E, and in both systems, keeping track of your loot and money is an intrinsic part of the experience.

However, recently I have started GMing Exalted. I initially considered using the money system from "Manacle and Coin", especially since the characters started out with zero money, but I soon changed my mind. After all, when one of the characters can solve money problems by basically saying: "I convince the leader of the city to grant me unlimited access to his treasury. Oh, and I also want to marry his daughter while we are at it. She's hot!", then keeping track of their individual cash flows becomes an exercise in futility.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Do you prefer abstract wealth systems or not? And if so, why?

 

[Terwox]

I'm not that fond of it at all. I ring of "you find 360 gold pieces, 200 silver pieces, two identical ruby rings, a small opal, and a ceramic doll that looks just like you with a message in it" feels better to me than "you find some coins, two identical ruby rings, a small opal, and a ceramic doll that looks just like you -- raise your wealth stat by 2." I dunno. Just feels less like D&D at that point... I guess it's "part of the experience" for me.

In a game I'm playing in, we're just starting to find some money at level 3. It feels different to say "and you find 50 gold!" than "and you take their money, raise your wealth stat by 5!"

So, when I run True20, I don't use a wealth stat. But, most worlds I've designed lately, I make worlds that don't have money in them anyway... worlds that focus on barter. Or worlds that focus on souls to power magic -- so "gold" was measured more in "defeated enemy's 'looted' souls." Eh, that makes it sound like it was an evil game... it wasn't... but, regardless, I'm straying from the topic.

So, I prefer concrete wealth systems, but I prefer barter systems to money-based wealth systems. (Mainly inherited from reading Sepulchrave -- Mostin needing to call in favors and trade coveted books for spells was so cool, and added a lot to the gameplay, so I wanted something that was less "I go spend my cash.") Ug, topic straying! Posting now!

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm not sure why abstract wealth wouldn't work - I mean, everything else in most RPGs (including D&D) is extremely abstract as it stands (hit points, base attack bonus, armor class, ad infinitum). I've always found it odd that people who are slavishly devoted to playing games that are, for all intents and purposes, exercises in extreme abstraction get hung up on a little thing like not tracking individual coins

So, yeah - I say bring wealth into line with other RPG mechanics. Make wealth as abstract as possible. Coin counting in games that aren't (even ostensibly) about counting coins makes very little sense. I mean, if somebody were publishing Stingy Banker d20 or something, then there might be an argument for including detailed currency counting rules... but in a game about high adventure where a character's physical abilities are represented by numerical values and their actions by dice rolls?

Abstract methods of dealing with wealth make a lot of sense for most RPGs, so I've always thought it somewhat odd that only a handful of RPGs actually employ such abstraction where character finances are concerned.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I like it in a modern setting (like d20 Modern or Shadowrun) but wouldn't use it in a D&D game. I am much too 'old school' for that.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I like the idea of a wealth system and it looks to me on paper the system for d20 Modern works. However, I find it easier to track individual coins than learn and educate an abstract system. Maybe that's the achilles-heel of wealth systems - the fact you need to educate others of how it works. And to some abstract wealth is difficult.

Of course, tracking wealth in the real world is pretty much an abstract exercise too, at least if you have more assets than a handful of dollars on the bank.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, I'm sure alot of people know my standing, at this point.

I'm a big fan of abstract systems, including the Wealth mechanic from d20M.

I've used it for Modern and I've used it for Fantasy. I was going to use it for Future, but the whole game never got ran ... had it ready, though.

At first some people have a hard time getting into it. But, for my money, it makes a heck of a lot more sense.

I don't usually say: "You find some idols and a bucket of gold, increase your Wealth by 2." People DO like to know the GP or Dollar value of their "scoop". It's actually pretty simple to whip back and forth, though I'm sad that d20M didn't really cover this in more depth. Even somebody who is rich would rather hear that they find 50,000 bucks in unmarked bills in the back of Joe Dealer's car. So what if it doesn't DO anything to his Wealth score, we role play it out and the like. If they split it four ways and the rich guy doesn't get anything out of it, we still roll to see the effects on another character's wealth, etc.

Out of hand, I never did the "flat Wealth bonus" situations, but instead convert those into cash. I have an index card with everything on it. Faster than addition in thousands and tens of thousands, actually.

To be honest, I think those systems make money MORE REAL. Which seems counter-intuitive, but that's the functional reality. In a D&D game where we tracked GP all the way down to copper, the group would roll into town and spend down to their last copper buying magical goods. They get 4,000gp ... they buy a Cloak of Charisma, they have maybe 15sp left. They would add their money together to buy better armor for the fighter if the Wizard didn't need any items this level. They had a "Board of Shame" where they kept accounting records of who owed what and who had what being built. Every trip. Every GP. Even if I tried to RP things out, who CARED about a toll at the front gates.

Switching over to a Wealth model ... I had characters buying land, property, using their Wealth to woo women and marry for political power, JEWELRY, gifts and bribes for visiting dignitaries ... oh, and maybe a masterwork sword. The first adventure out they were given the tools needed to CRAFT (at half-retail) some shirts of Con +2. Those never got made. They decided the money was better spent retrofitting a Dryad's grove to be more habitable. (And I had the same percentage of combats-per-session as I would under normal rules.)

So since then, if I can possibly wing it, I always play with Wealth, regardless of genre.

--fje

 

[the Jester]

I haven't tried abstract wealth, but in the right style of game it sounds interesting.

 

[trancejeremy]

I can't stand 'em. Confusing, and it really reduces what players can do. For instance, in Traveller, a common game is a travelling merchant. Can't really do that with abstract systems. Or upgrade ships. In d20 Future/Modern, that doesn't work because the scale is so funky at the high end, that you can modify your ship as much as you want, and it's all the same basic price. Because whatever you do, won't be enough to move up the price of the ship to the next DC, because they are so big.

They do save book keeping. But I don't see that is worth what you lose in control.

 

[philreed]

In d20 Future/Modern, that doesn't work because the scale is so funky at the high end, that you can modify your ship as much as you want, and it's all the same basic price.

I have to agree here. Before I started designing starships and mecha under the system I liked the Wealth system. But once you start dealing in purchase DCs in the 50s and 60s I think the system breaks down.

"Okay, so you've decided on the deluxe model, with an enhanced drive package, top-of-the-line sensor system, better armor, five cannons, and two missile launchers. That modify's the purchase DC by . . . +1?"

 

[Tonguez]

In my Mythic Polynesia setting I have a world in which cash-economy does not exist and so introduced a wealth mechanic (renaming it 'Influence') as a measure of the status a character has and thus their ability to call in favours and draw resources from the community.

It works really well, it helps create RP situations by its very nature (ie influence implies that other people exist to be influenced) and since my world has no coins treasure isn't really affected. Characters still get magic items and special materials but when they roll into town they can't just call into the local general store and stock up (they can trade materials with the local artisan and gain something of value in return though)