Absurdly Foolish Question about Sorcerers

[Darklone]

Can't we compare barbarians to fighters or paladins again? Was more fun.

What's the point here? Some think sorcerers are weaker, others may have different experiences... you listed in the several posts above all advantages and disadvantages of both classes, sometimes under certain circumstances. The biggest circumstance ever: The DM. The style of the campaign.

You simply can't say whether a sorcerer or wizard is better, weaker, balanced, broken, whatever. Play a different game somewhere else and everything might look different. It's easy to say, under circumstance A) the wizard is a lot better, but that does not mean he's always better.

And if wizards playtesting for years proved one thing, then it's the fact that the games played by all gamers out there still proved to be different.

 

[apsuman]

Where exactly do you get off comparing a Sorcerer who casts only Fireballs to a Conjurer?

Is Apples to Apples comparison so hard for you?

A character who casts Fireballs is compared to an Evoker.

An Evoker who has 2 or three fireballs, and probably keeps the rest in Lightning Bolts.

-Frank

First, please explain the 42 conformations thing, I really do not understand.

I put the example together quickly. You were the one that said specializing is a no brainer, so I made sure that I chose a specialist. I was not trying to short shrift your Wizard.

I have two thoughts about using the conjurer. First, If you could only compare a sorcerer with a fireball spell to an evoker, what do you compare a sorcerer with at least one spell from each school to?

Second, let's take my previous example (wally and sid) and this time make wally an evoker, the spell list could be THE EXACT SAME. The only difference if Wally is an evoker is that he could have 5 magic missiles instead of four. Heck, if Wally were an evoker, the only two damaging spells from level 2 are flaming sphere and scorching ray, neither are really good against fire immune monsters.

The point would be the same. The sorcerer could cast improved versions of his lower level spells in his higher slots with metamagic (or not if necessary) after the wizard is out of options.


g!

 

[Zhure]

Because the Wizard's whole schtick is adaptability.

The Sorcerer has to pick spells upon gaining a level - the Wizard picks after that.

So if both were actually playing side by side the Wizard would get to pick second anyway.

-Frank

Why? Because the Sorcerer levels up before the Wizard because the Wizzy spent so much experience on scrolls he's part of a level behind? Probably not. They probably level up at the same time, or pretty close to it, otherwise the whole "sorcerers are behind a level of spells after 3rd" is a false statement anyway.

No, the Sorcerer and the Wizard level at the same time and pick spells at the same time. The Sorcerer picks spells known and the Wizard picks spells known in his spellbook.

Unless of course you were talking about the Sorcerer only having to meditate fifteen minutes and the Wizard having to spend an hour preparing his spells, in which case you're right, the Sorcerer gets done first.

But let's assume Wizzy and Sorcy hook up at sixth level at a tavern, never having met before. What does your archetypical specialist have in his spellbook? What feats? What banned schools?

It's possible the Sorcy has a lot of the same spells, or some the Wizzy can't even use from a spell completion device, or some combination of both. All of the sorcerers I've played at or near 10th level have at least 1 spell from every school, something no specialist is capable of doing.

Greg

 

[apsuman]

Wally and Sid revisited:

IF a level 6 wizard has in his spellbook 10 spells of level 1, 10 spells of level 2 and 10 spells of level 3, one metamagic that incleases a spell by one level and one metamagic feat that increases a spell by 2 levels, I came up with

4,734,275,736,960

Combinations to prepare spells. I ignored cantrips and assumed that in the specialty slots you could have any spell (even though you can not). This number reflects the every possible combination spell selections, i.e. every spell of level 1 different, 2 the same and the rest different, 3 the same and 2 different, 4 the same, or all 5 the same spell. I included metamagiced versions of spells, i.e. if every one of the wizard's level 1 spells could be metamagiced by one level he has a potential of 20 different level 2 spells. Similarly, he has 30 different spells of level 3 (all 3 unmodified, all level 2 meta-ed up one level, and all level 1 spells meta-ed up two levels).

My Sorcerer with 4 known spells of level 1, 2 known spells of level 2 and 1 known 3rd level spell, with again one metamagic feat that increases a spell by one level, and one that increases a spell by two levels I came up with :

1,835,352,981,504 Combinations.

Now, the wizard, Wally here, chooses exactly one of his 4.7 Trillion (US) different combinations every day (assuming he leaves no slots open).

Sid on the other hand remains Mr. 1.8 Trillion all morning until he starts casting spells, then he becomes a mere fration of himself only having a Trillion different combinations availabile to him after a spell or two.

After each of them casts 4 first level spells, 4 second level spells, and 3 third level spells, Wally has one of each level left and is praying that they fit the situation, but Sid still has 16128 different combinations of spells available to him.

Even if they each only had 1 third level spell left, Wally hopes the ONE he picked that morning is the right one. Sid has 7 different spells he could cast.

Now, there is no doubt that in those 4.7 trillion possibilites Wally has a few, perhaps a couple of hundred million of them, that are ABSOLUTELY PERFECT for the day. But he probably also has more than a few, perhaps several hundred million of them, that are absolutely awful. Sid has what he has, and he knows this the next time he levels up too.


g!

 

[KarinsDad]

Wally and Sid revisited:

Excellent!

Nothing like better living through math.

 

[apsuman]

Where exactly do you get off comparing a Sorcerer who casts only Fireballs to a Conjurer?

Is Apples to Apples comparison so hard for you?

A character who casts Fireballs is compared to an Evoker.

An Evoker who has 2 or three fireballs, and probably keeps the rest in Lightning Bolts.

-Frank

I probably should just let this go, but...

The sorcerer does not only cast fireballs. That was part of my point.

And, if knowing one third level spell requires (in your opinion) that I compare the sorcerer to an evoker, then when he learns one fourth level spell and chooses Greater invisibility?

And if comparing him to an evoker at one level and to a transmuter, or conjurer, or illusionist at another level defeats your own arguement, primarily because you say the the wizard is more powerful, but one wizard can not be double specialized.


g!