Absurdly Foolish Question about Sorcerers

[Thanee]

Page 175 of the 3e DMG unambiguously states that using a scroll is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. But it also states unambiguously that it is the normal casting time "unless it states otherwise". Whether you believe the immediately proceeding statement is it "stating otherwise" or not has no clear answer.

It's of course not, since it's not the item's description, which obviously has to state otherwise!

The above clearly states that activating scrolls takes a longer casting time than a standard action, if the spell's casting time is longer. Altho, it would also be true for free actions then, as that also differs from the standard action.

Suffice to say, eating an infusion "worked like a scroll" and was explicitly a standard action regardless of casting time - thus strongly implying that Scrolls were also a flat-rate standard action.

Infusions are splat-book and therefore (IMHO) not suitable as a rules reference. If scrolls clearly say (and to me they do) that the casting time is longer, then infusions, which are based on scrolls and work like scrolls, should also have a higher casting time, even if it doesn't explicitly say that.

But then again, I'm applying common sense to rules in cases where the rules most obviously fail, while you prefer to go by the letter regardless.

Or are infusions more like potions (also from the cost to make them, like all those FRCS stuff, Gems, Tattoos and whatnot)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

But then again, I'm applying common sense to rules in cases where the rules most obviously fail, while you prefer to go by the letter regardless.

Which was of course my point. People who play any particular action cost for reading scrolls aren't "wrong" because it doesn't really say whether the "Standard Action" rule supercedes the "Regular Casting Time" rule or the other way around. Both have equal weight and neither leaves room for interpretation - it's simply a question of which sentence "wins". And for that we may as wlel play thumb war as have a reasoned debate.

Or are infusions more like potions- ?

No. Infusions are Spell Completion - despite being eaten and not "cast". You need to be able to cast the spell to eat an infusion.

-Frank

 

[KarinsDad]

Which was of course my point. People who play any particular action cost for reading scrolls aren't "wrong" because it doesn't really say whether the "Standard Action" rule supercedes the "Regular Casting Time" rule or the other way around. Both have equal weight and neither leaves room for interpretation - it's simply a question of which sentence "wins". And for that we may as wlel play thumb war as have a reasoned debate.

Except that one rule indirectly indicates that it supercedes the other. Just because there are two sentences in the book, one specific and one general, does not mean that you cannot determine precedence and intent. It is merely one rule with all of the information needed and the other rule with just the information needed for the general case of the specific type of item.

Sure, if you read either sentence in a vacuum, then you will be predisposed towards one over the other.

Specific rule: All cars have 4 tires on the road unless otherwise specified.
General rule: Cars have 4 tires on the road.

Both are correct, but the first takes precedence over the second due to its clarification.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. Infusions are Spell Completion.

No, they're not.

"It works like a scroll, except that it is use-activated".

It is a Use-Activated item, not a Spell Completion item, that happens to have similar activation restrictions to a scroll.

Unlike a Spell Completion item, there's no chance of mishap if your caster level is not high enough; you cannot activate an infusion unless your caster level is at least equal to that of the infusion. Instead, if you fail to meet any of the requirements, it acts as a poison.

Unlike scrolls, the "standard action" clause is included in the item description, and thus, unlike scrolls, infusions override the "casting time of the spell" general rule (as confirmed in the MotW FAQ).

-Hyp.

 

[Zhure]

The ability to take your meat-and-potatoes spells and replace them for one day with specific divinations and non-combat spells in order to meet a specific known challenge is an ability that Wizards have. And they don't have to exercise it. If they don't - they are just like Sorcerers except that they have more spells of the higher powered newest levels. If they do they are performing tasks that Sorcerers can't even pretend to compete at.

Yes. Sticking to the basics is often a good idea. Wizards can do that better than Sorcerers can.

That's Schroedinger's Wizard. He can prepare this, and could've prepared that, or maybe left a slot open and possibly won't need any spells from his banned schools.

I practice all the wizards I've seen tend to prepare the same basic spells that sorcerers do. Basic is as basic does. Wizards that prepare non-basic spells on a general adventure tend to die or run out of good options before a same leveled sorcerer (except at third, as we've all agreed). Sorcerers who need really odd spells tend to have scrolls to make up for his lack. Wizards who need repetetive castings tend to have wands to back up his lack.

To say the ideal wizard can be more prepared for unusual situation is exactly what Schroedinger's Wizard is all about. Showing it on paper is something else. Write down where he spent his gold, what spells he has prepared, where his spellbook is, what his specialization and banned schools are. Then we can discuss a real wizard, not some ideal.

Greg

 

[FrankTrollman]

To say the ideal wizard can be more prepared for unusual situation is exactly what Schroedinger's Wizard is all about. Showing it on paper is something else. Write down where he spent his gold, what spells he has prepared, where his spellbook is, what his specialization and banned schools are. Then we can discuss a real wizard, not some ideal.

But the Sorcerer needs to go first - definitionally. The Sorcerer at 6th level has 42 different major conformations available. The Wizard can duplicate any of them - but only two or three of them at a time.

-Frank

 

[apsuman]

But the Sorcerer needs to go first - definitionally. The Sorcerer at 6th level has 42 different major conformations available. The Wizard can duplicate any of them - but only two or three of them at a time.

-Frank

Please explain the 42 different major conformations.

But back to your point. Lets say we have two level 6 characters, Sid the Sorcerer, and Wally the Wizard. Each has an 18 in his spellcasting stat.

So, if I have it right
Sal has a base of 6/6/5/3 spells per day modified to 6/7/6/4 because of his 18 CHA
Sal knows 7/4/2/1 spells.

Wally might have a lot of spells in his spellbook but he can cast a base of 4/3/3/2 modified to 4/4/4/3 spells per day further modified to 5/5/5/4 because of the specialization.
Lets make Conjuration his special school and make Necromancy and Transmutation prohibited.

Now Wally knows Fireball, Lighting bolt, Dispel Magic, and Summon Monster III for this 3rd level spells. Today he memorizes one of each.

Sid only knows fireball, because he is uncreative. But his first level spells include Maigic missle.

Wally and Sid are waling down the dungeon and encounter a fire resistant creature intent on killing them (say a hellhound). Now Wally would cast his lightning bolt, as FB and Dispel Magic are useless right now. He would do on average 21 (10 if the save is made) points of damage (6d6) and he is then out of 3rd level spells. Sid decided to cast and empowered Magic Missle, generating 3 missles doing and average of 15.5 points of damage (1d4+1) * 3 * 1.5, or if he had shocking grasp, could have cast and empowered Shocking grasp and done (if the hit was made) 25.5 points of damage.

Now if they need to go to round two (more hellhounds?) or they encounter more later in the day. Wally is less effective as his most powerful spell is useless, he might have 3 (hey lets give him 4) magic missles prepared. Sid on the other hand is still as effective as he was in round one. And Sid has what, a possible 16 magic missiles left today 3 which could be empowered.

...
Another example, Woodrow and Steve like Wally and Sid.

Woodrow has Acid Arrow and wants to zing the BBEG running away, so he casts Acid Arrow (hey a conjuration spell) and can plan on 2d4 for three rounds, average 15.

Steve can cast an extended Acid arrow and double the damage to 30.


So, unless your 42 comformations incldues metamagic, then you are really slighting the sorcerer.


g!

 

[FrankTrollman]

Where exactly do you get off comparing a Sorcerer who casts only Fireballs to a Conjurer?

Is Apples to Apples comparison so hard for you?

A character who casts Fireballs is compared to an Evoker.

An Evoker who has 2 or three fireballs, and probably keeps the rest in Lightning Bolts.

-Frank

 

[Zhure]

But the Sorcerer needs to go first - definitionally. The Sorcerer at 6th level has 42 different major conformations available. The Wizard can duplicate any of them - but only two or three of them at a time.

-Frank

Why can't the Wizard go first?

 

[FrankTrollman]

Why can't the Wizard go first?

Because the Wizard's whole schtick is adaptability.

The Sorcerer has to pick spells upon gaining a level - the Wizard picks after that.

So if both were actually playing side by side the Wizard would get to pick second anyway.

-Frank