Absurdly Foolish Question about Sorcerers

[FrankTrollman]

However, if they don't, they will have fewer spells to choose from than a sorcerer, negating their primary advantage over sorcerers.

That's not true.

A Wizard gains 2 spells per level, and starts with six or seven. At any even level (up to 18th) the Wizard has 4 known spells of every level except first, at which he knows 8 or 9.

At any randomly chosen even level (up to 18th), the Sorcerer knows one spell of his highest level, then 2 spells of the next level, 4 spells of the next level, and sometimes as much as five of the level before that.

Of his top three spell levels, the wizard knows about 6 more spells - without spending a dime.

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It is a fallacy to hold Sorcerers and Wizards to different standards.

The Sorcerer only has a few spells at his disposal - and has to choose them when he levels up (possibly as much as once per four sessions). The Wizard can set himself up to only have a few spells prepared - and gets to choose those every single day (possibly as much as twice every evening).

Furthermore, if a Wizard decides that learning a spell was a foolish thing to do (say, learning Protection from Chaos in a game where the primary enemy seems to be Formians or Baatezu) - the Wizard can gain an additional spell to replace it by spending a bit of money and time. Or the Wizard can go up in level and pick other spells.

The Sorcerer does not have that option - and can only swap spells out when he goes up in level. Worse, if it turns out your next enemy is Slaad, the Wizard still has his old spells - but the Sorcerer's are gone forever.

I find that most of the wizard vs sorcerer comparisons suffer from what I call "Schroedinger's Wizard." He's an illusionist and a transmutator and a diviner and an enchanter. He has prepared all possible spells and selected all possible spells.

But he doesn't have to be. The primary argument for Sorcerers seems to be "sticking to the basics is a better strategy."

Often, that's true. Sticking to the basics and having piles of good general purpose spells is often the best thing you can do with yourself. And Wizards can do that. Nothing is forcing them to diversify to the point where they no longer have the meat-and-potatoes spells they need to get through the day.

The ability to take your meat-and-potatoes spells and replace them for one day with specific divinations and non-combat spells in order to meet a specific known challenge is an ability that Wizards have. And they don't have to exercise it. If they don't - they are just like Sorcerers except that they have more spells of the higher powered newest levels. If they do they are performing tasks that Sorcerers can't even pretend to compete at.

Yes. Sticking to the basics is often a good idea. Wizards can do that better than Sorcerers can.

-Frank

 

[Senior Bobo]

Wizards

I see a lot of arguements stating that 'if the wizard choses wrong spells he's out of luck for the whole day'.

I never see anyone bring up the fact that wizards do not have to pick all their spells at the beginning of the day. A wizard can keep spell slots free and available and fill them with as little as 15 minutes of preperation at any point in the day. This means if a wizard keeps 1 spell slot open from his highest level he can effectively cast ANY spell in his entire spell book with only 15 minutes of notice. (Because you can always put lower level slots in higher level ones).

Granted, 15 minutes is way too much time to save a wizard from the "I'm falling off a cliff and didn't prepare feather fall" or not having anti-undead spells ready when a vampire suddenly appears at the campsite. That's what scrolls are for. But 15 minutes is a long time lots of times.

It takes 20 minutes to take 20 to search a room for a pesky secret door. Plenty of time. It probably takes at least 15 minutes to break down or set up camp. I've seen parties spend an hour easy trying to figure out how to get past a particluar puzzle or obstacle, 15 minutes to pull out the perfect spell for this one plan is nothing. Does your party stop for meals? That's a great time to fine tune your spells and add another key spell or two based on how the day is progressing.

The most obscure spell in a wizard's spellbook is only ever 15 minutes away. That's an incredible amount of flexibility if you have a decent sized spellbook. Throw in the possibility of borrowed or captured spellbooks and a wizard with minimum preperation can throw out any one of a very large spell list on rather short notice. Add in items like pearls of power or other ways of recasting spells and that spell you didn't even think you'd need or have prepared when you set off today you can now cast multiple times.

 

[apsuman]

See I disagree about that idea that Wizards are better at sticking to the basics.

Metamagic is a sorcerer's friend. And being able to apply it on the fly makes him have a lot of different possibilites. that the wizard just can not have all prepared.


g!

 

[nimisgod]

IME, Sorcerers are better than Wizards in two tasks: party buffing and blasting enemies into bits. In general, Sorcerers are good at tasks that require them to use one spell multiple times.

While a wizard can fulfill these two functions with wands, the exp used to make the wands might put him below the party average. Furthermore, wands used to make blasting spells will have crappy save DCs while wands used to buff will have generally terrible durations (unless you spend the extra dough and exp).

IMO, In order to be effective, a wizard has to be played by an expert player. Even then, spell choice (and lack of spell slots) is his weakness. For a wizard not to run out of spells depends on a party's playing style (and a player's skill) rather than the class itself.

A sorcerer doesn't need an expert player to be useful to the average party. AoE spells weaken/kill large groups while greater magic weapon (haste and other buff spells) can improve the party's ability to kill. Player skill only improves this further.

On a strictly class vs. class basis, IMO, the sorcerer is not underpowered.

However, having played both at low, mid and high levels, I still cannot see why a wizard would have more spells than a sorc (barring use of wands, of course). Without magic items, a wizard cannot compare to the amount of spell power that a sorcerer could have.

 

[KarinsDad]

Granted, 15 minutes is way too much time to save a wizard from the "I'm falling off a cliff and didn't prepare feather fall" or not having anti-undead spells ready when a vampire suddenly appears at the campsite. That's what scrolls are for.

Well, Feather Fall scrolls won't typically prevent you from falling since although the spell states "the character can cast this quickly enough to save the character if he or she unexpectedly falls", reading a scroll (i.e. activating a Spell Completion item) is still a standard action (in 3E).

15 minutes to pull out the perfect spell for this one plan is nothing.

Although what you state with regard to time is true, you are ignoring the concentration aspect. A Wizard can often prepare a new spell later in the day, but not always. He cannot do it riding on a horse, or in a wind storm, or even if his companions are arguing over the best way to get through the locked door (while he attempts to study his Knock spell).

No doubt about it, Wizards have options over time. But, they do not typically have as many spur of the moment options (i.e. did not study Feather Fall today and start to fall, you are SOL, even if you have the scroll). Their spur of the moment versatility often comes from scrolls and other items (which although sometimes available, often cost money to acquire).

 

[Senior Bobo]

Well, Feather Fall scrolls won't typically prevent you from falling since although the spell states "the character can cast this quickly enough to save the character if he or she unexpectedly falls", reading a scroll (i.e. activating a Spell Completion item) is still a standard action (in 3E).

Excellent point. My bad. The point is still that spur of the moment demands can't be met by this, which I think we all agree on.

Although what you state with regard to time is true, you are ignoring the concentration aspect. A Wizard can often prepare a new spell later in the day, but not always. He cannot do it riding on a horse, or in a wind storm, or even if his companions are arguing over the best way to get through the locked door (while he attempts to study his Knock spell).

Well, horses can't run all day long and require rest some time. Arguing party members may or may not be under the control of the wizard. If you're party is not mollified by 'give me peace and quiet for 15 minutes I can solve this problem easily' then you have bigger problems.

A wind storm or other 'adverse conditions' can just as easily screw up a wizard's (or a sorcerer's) morning preperation and in that case any arcane caster is flat out in trouble. That's along the lines of 'What if my DM prevents me from preparing spells or takes my spellbook/holy symbol'. It's a class feature and while the dm can in circumstance take it away from you at his/her chosing it shouldn't be a permanent occurance.

No doubt about it, Wizards have options over time. But, they do not typically have as many spur of the moment options (i.e. did not study Feather Fall today and start to fall, you are SOL, even if you have the scroll). Their spur of the moment versatility often comes from scrolls and other items (which although sometimes available, often cost money to acquire).

Spur of the moment encounters affect sorcerer's and wizards pretty evenly. They both have to pick x number of spells to live or die by. Wizards are a little favored by getting to choose per day instead of per level. Sorcerer's are a little favored because they have the ability to cast 1 or 2 key spells for any encounter over and over and over if they wish.

My only point was wizards are a lot more flexible then given credit for usually and that many times it's not even a break in the routine of adventurers to access that flexibility. YMMV.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, Feather Fall scrolls won't typically prevent you from falling since although the spell states "the character can cast this quickly enough to save the character if he or she unexpectedly falls", reading a scroll (i.e. activating a Spell Completion item) is still a standard action (in 3E).

Unless you're activating a spell.

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The item description of Wands, for example, does specifically state otherwise. It says it's a standard action to activate a wand, or the casting time of the spell if it's longer than a standard action. So a Wand of Feather Fall - casting time not longer than a standard action - takes a standard action to activate.

The item description of Scrolls, on the other hand, makes no mention of activation time. So, it does not specifically state otherwise, and the general rule - the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item - remains in place. So, a Scroll of Feather Fall can be activated as a free action.

Note - the text of the Spell Completion method is not an item description. It is an activation method description, and thus does not override the general rule, because it is not an item description specifically stating otherwise.

In any case where the Spell Completion method is used to activate a power that is not a spell, it requires a standard action. But in all other cases, it requires the casting time of the spell, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

Now, this still, often, won't allow you to save yourself, because it's unlikely you'll have the scroll in hand... and retrieiving it is probably at least a MEA, depending on where it's stored. But nevertheless, if you have it in hand, you can activate it as a free action.

"Whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots..."

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

The item description of Scrolls, on the other hand, makes no mention of activation time.

Not according to the 3E SRD.

"Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

Now, this still, often, won't allow you to save yourself, because it's unlikely you'll have the scroll in hand... and retrieiving it is probably at least a MEA, depending on where it's stored. But nevertheless, if you have it in hand, you can activate it as a free action.

Not according to the 3E SRD.

Plus, even if it were a free action, you cannot use a free action outside your turn if in combat (with the exception of a Feather Fall spell where it is explicitly called out, but not a Feather Fall scroll). Even a Quickened spell cannot be cast as a free action outside of your turn in combat. So, this is definitely not allowed in combat.

However, if you are out of combat and have the scroll in hand, then you might be able do it (depending on the generosity of your DM with regard to a standard action versus free action out of combat since there are no standard action or free action times outside of combat). Most of the time, though, the scroll is not going to help you.

 

[FrankTrollman]

This is a difference between 3.5 and 3rd edition.

In 3rd edition you could put Awaken onto a Scroll and activate it as a Standard Action (allowing you to Awaken yourself in conjunction with Shapechange).

In 3.5 it requires only Limited Wish and Polymorph to Awaken yourself - but the Scroll loop is closed. However, in 3.5 a Scroll of Awaken still takes hours and hours to read, while a scroll of feather Fall is done in a free action.

This is all meaningless of course, as a Sorcerer sacrificing a Spell Known is a larger concession than a Wizard sacrificing a spell slot.

The Sorcerer only knows 5 1st level spells at 20th level, and is thus only prepared for at most 5 different bizzare circumstances (such as falling). The Wizard, OTOH, has 7 (or even 8 if he has an Intelligence of 28 or more) different 1st level Spell Slots at 20th level, and since none of them are going to be particularly useful in combat they are all going to be emergency and utility spells.

The Sorcerer is using up 20% of his first level options to have Feather Fall.It takes less than 15% of a Wizard's first level spell options to have the same ace in the hole.

The question isn't "how can a Wizard match a Sorcerer" - it's "how can a Sorcerer match the Wizard?" And the fact is that the answer is that he can't.

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

I never see anyone bring up the fact that wizards do not have to pick all their spells at the beginning of the day. A wizard can keep spell slots free and available and fill them with as little as 15 minutes of preperation at any point in the day.

Yeah, that's quite nifty and I always do that for my wizards. I actually often have one slot free of every spell level available, or even more!

It doesn't help directly in a situation, but if you know of one coming up during the course of the day, or need something replaced, the free slots are very nice to have around.

Bye
Thanee