Absurdly Foolish Question about Sorcerers

[Urbannen]

Like the others have said, by the rules yes they need them, by common sense no. Frankly, though, the mechanics behind the Psion is how the Sorcerer SHOULD have been done

Here here!

People always ask why sorcerers need material components. The question should be "Why do they need any components?"

 

[Spatzimaus]

I like to know what I do wrong: I have a psion in my party, and he's far from underpowered.

I may have overstated a bit, but not by THAT much. I've played three psionic characters myself (two versions of a Shaper Psion, and a Psychic Warrior). The problem with the Psion was, if you don't add an outside source like Mind's Eye or Mindscapes, he just doesn't have enough Feats, Prestige Classes, or unique powers to choose from. All the other classes have official splatbooks to pick through, chock full of marginally broken stuff.

If you don't use Mindscapes' "secondary discipline" rule, the high-level Psion really has a problem taking any powers outside his primary discipline. The Mind's Eye added a Feat to help with this, but it's still an issue. IMCs, we didn't use Mindscapes, so it was just something we had to deal with.

As for offensive psionic combat modes, the only one I've EVER seen used is Mind Blast because of the area effect. The rest are just weak: a single-target spell with horrendous save DC (remember that nonpsions get +8 to their Will) that stuns for a turn or two? It's worse than the second-level power "Ectoplasmic Cocoon", which is just a copy of Hold Person. Every Psion I know took "Resculpt Mind" when given the chance (it trades modes for bonus Feats).

Anyway, I'm not trying to sidetrack this entire thread into a Psion debate. I was just saying that I wish they had made the Sorcerer more like the 3E Psion: point-based, no components, distinct spell list, and different class skills.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Anyway, I'm not trying to sidetrack this entire thread into a Psion debate. I was just saying that I wish they had made the Sorcerer more like the 3E Psion: point-based, no components, distinct spell list, and different class skills.

Do you have Midnight? The Channeler system might be more or less what you want (though you might want to give them more points in a setting with a higher magic power level).

 

[Spatzimaus]

Do you have Midnight? The Channeler system might be more or less what you want.

No, we don't really use any non-WotC stuff. At first, we had a player base that tended to rotate a bit too often for comfort, so we figured it was better to stick with the stuff everyone knew. When we started getting tired of the D&D mechanics, instead of shopping around we decided to make a homebrew system that used a more free-form spellcasting system; it's almost done now. So, it might even be similar to what you're talking about, but our Channeler class (yes, same name) isn't really based on any outside source.
One of these days I'll get around to posting it on the House Rules forum, for suggestions.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

No, we don't really use any non-WotC stuff.

You miss out. While I also use "real D&D" material most of the time, I do use some d20 Stuff.
You can believe me: Midnight is a really cool setting (I think if you made a smetzger-like poll about midnight or their spell system, you'd get far more 7-10's than anything else).

At first, we had a player base that tended to rotate a bit too often for comfort, so we figured it was better to stick with the stuff everyone knew.

If the problem is solved now, you can start out trying out d20 stuff.

When we started getting tired of the D&D mechanics, instead of shopping around we decided to make a homebrew system that used a more free-form spellcasting system; it's almost done now. So, it might even be similar to what you're talking about, but our Channeler class (yes, same name) isn't really based on any outside source.
One of these days I'll get around to posting it on the House Rules forum, for suggestions.

Do post it.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Except that I don't think most people agree they're underpowered. Nobody in my group thinks they're underpowered at all.

1. At low levels, Wizards run out of spells.
2. At high levels, they don't.

3. At low levels, Wizards get more spells per day than Sorcerers do.
4. At high levels, Sorcerers get more spells per day, but Wizards get the same or more high level spells and greater versatility of which they can cast in a day.

5. Once the day is over, any spells you have left may as well not have been there in the first place.

.: Sorcerers are underpowered compared to Wizards.

People always ask why sorcerers need material components. The question should be "Why do they need any components?"

Of course, from a stylistic standpoint they probably shouldn't.

And of course, another important question is why anyone should need Material Components?

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67024

But yes. By the book, Wizards need to act out inane puns every time they cast spells. Sorcerers somehow are expected to have come up with the same craptacular analogies on their own time.

-Frank

 

[KarinsDad]

3. At low levels, Wizards get more spells per day than Sorcerers do.

You must be playing a different game than me. Sorcerers almost always have more spells per day.

Here is the breakdown (not counting zeroth level spells which are often next to worthless and sorcerers get more of anyway) of sorcerer with min bonus spells (i.e. min ability score for highest possible level spell) and with max bonus spells, followed by specialist wizard with min bonus spells and with max bonus spells, followed by wizard with min bonus spells and with max bonus spells (assuming no bonus items).

01 (3 4) (2 3) (1 1)
02 (4 5) (3 4) (2 3)
03 (5 6) (6 7) (4 5)
04 (10 11) (8 9) (6 7)
05 (11 12) (10 12) (7 9)
06 (15 17) (12 14) (9 11)
07 (17 19) (16 18) (12 14)
08 (22 25) (18 22) (14 18)
09 (24 27) (21 25) (16 20)
10 (28 32) (23 27) (18 22)

A Wizard never has more spells than a Sorcerer. A Specialist Wizard has more spells at level 3 and all types of Wizards can have a few higher level spells at odd levels starting at level 3, but Wizards (even Specialist Wizards) do not (with the exception of level 3) get more spells per day than Sorcerers at any level.

To get to the higher levels, you have to survive. At low levels, Sorcerers are better at that. Not only because they have more spells per day, but because they do not yet get locked into the state of not having the proper spell needed as often as Wizards.

.: Sorcerers are underpowered compared to Wizards.

Not if the Sorcerer lives and the Wizard dies (which happens a lot more often than the other way around at low levels).

Granted, at low level Wizards can make scrolls easier if a Sorcerer does not take Scribe Scroll, but on the other hand, Wizard treasure often goes to putting new spells in his book and Sorcerers can spontaneously cast meta-magic spells. All in all, survivability goes to Sorcerers at low level.

No doubt about it. At higher levels, Wizards are more powerful (more feats, more ability to make multiple scrolls for every spell in their repetoire, etc.). However, at low to mid levels, Sorcerers are more powerful.

 

[nimisgod]

It's worse than the second-level power "Ectoplasmic Cocoon", which is just a copy of Hold Person.

Hey! I like Ecto Cocoon! What other low level power can "hold" a cleric as well as E.C?

 

[FrankTrollman]

You must be playing a different game than me. Sorcerers almost always have more spells per day.

I don't consider cantrips as spells in these calculations, and I believe that is warranted based on their actual combat effects. I also don't even bother comparing Sorcerers to Non-specialist Wizards, because even a Specialist Wizard has much more spell versatility in daily selection than a Sorcerer can.

So at 3rd level:

The Sorcerer has 6 1st level spells, which can be selected from a body of three options. 5 are base, and 1 comes from having a high charisma.

The Wizard has 4 1st level spells, and 3 2nd level spells. 2 and 1 are base, with an additional 1 of each level for specialization and intelligence.

There are 8 schools of magic, and the Sorcerer only knows three spells! The specialist Wizard has access to more different schools of magic than the Sorcerer does.

And then again at any any arbitrary even level:

The Sorcerer knows 1 spell of his highest level, and can cast it 4 times.

The Wizard knows 4 spells of his highest level and can prepare any one of them up to 4 times.

So the Wizard can match the Sorcerer with his best spell - spell for spell. In fact, on any given day the Wizard can match his choice of four different Sorcerers of his level. Or he can do something that none of those Sorcerers can do - which is mix and match his spell selections so that he can have less than four of his most powerful spell and also have less than four of a different and equally powerful spell. And the Wizard gets to choose what set up he has every day.

And at Odd levels, the Wizard has more high level spells and has more powerful spells.

And that's without spending a dime on spell books - just the two free spells the wizard gets each level. The Wizard also has the ability to spend time and equipment to upgrade his versatility to be able to mimic even more different Sorcerers throughout the week (though still only one per day) - and of course the Sorcerer can't do that.

The Sorcerer has more restricted magic, and at the crucial high levels can cast less of it. That's a fact - the flavor text that he gets more spells per day is a lie which is countermanded by the slower spell progression.

Granted, at low level Wizards can make scrolls easier if a Sorcerer does not take Scribe Scroll, but on the other hand, Wizard treasure often goes to putting new spells in his book and Sorcerers can spontaneously cast meta-magic spells. All in all, survivability goes to Sorcerers at low level.

Metamagic is not a consideration at low level. I am unable to understand how "has less magic and can cast it at a lower level" is in any way an advantage at low level. Or any level. If perhaps your Wizards traditionally pick dumb spells and the Sorcerers pick good spells that would be true. But there's no reason for that to happen - Wizards and Sorcerers pick off the same spell list.

-Frank

 

[KarinsDad]

I also don't even bother comparing Sorcerers to Non-specialist Wizards, because even a Specialist Wizard has much more spell versatility in daily selection than a Sorcerer can.

That is a nice sentiment on your part, but you and I both know the real reason you do not compare non-specialist wizards with sorcerers. It is because sorcerers get SO many more spells at low level than non-specialist wizards that even you are not willing to debate the effectiveness issue between the two.

Every time you and I have discussed wizards, you immediately jump into the specialist wizards camp because you know that specialist wizards are much more potent and capable of survival than non-specialist wizards at low level.

So at 3rd level:

The Sorcerer has 6 1st level spells, which can be selected from a body of three options. 5 are base, and 1 comes from having a high charisma.

The Wizard has 4 1st level spells, and 3 2nd level spells. 2 and 1 are base, with an additional 1 of each level for specialization and intelligence.

There are 8 schools of magic, and the Sorcerer only knows three spells! The specialist Wizard has access to more different schools of magic than the Sorcerer does.

Absolutely. No doubt about it. Third level (and fifth level) are where the specialist wizard does as good or better than the sorcerer with regard to number of spells per day. It still doesn't mean that the specialist wizard necessarily has a greater chance of survival overall.

First off, you blew off levels one and two where the specialist wizard has at most two and three spells respectively that he can pick out of his entire repertoire and one spell that he can pick from typically one or two spells out of his specialty class.

At first and second levels, the extra first level spell per day is crucial. Spells like Sleep or Color Spray can make a major difference at first and second level. To get to third level, you have to survive through levels one and two (at least in campaigns where you start at level one).

Also at those levels, spells like Daze and Disrupt Undead and even Ray of Frost are still semi-potent spells used at the proper time and the sorcerer not only gets more of them, but can pick any of the 5 or 6 zeroth level spells he knows. Six Rays of Frost from the Sorcerer can be damaging against a highly armored foe compared to one or two Rays of Frost (if any) from the Wizard.

Until you get to third level, the sorcerer typically has a greater chance to survive.

And then again at any any arbitrary even level:

The Sorcerer knows 1 spell of his highest level, and can cast it 4 times.

The Wizard knows 4 spells of his highest level and can prepare any one of them up to 4 times.

So the Wizard can match the Sorcerer with his best spell - spell for spell. In fact, on any given day the Wizard can match his choice of four different Sorcerers of his level. Or he can do something that none of those Sorcerers can do - which is mix and match his spell selections so that he can have less than four of his most powerful spell and also have less than four of a different and equally powerful spell. And the Wizard gets to choose what set up he has every day.

Except that you forgot two things:

1) The specialist Wizard can do this IF the best spell is one from his specialty. Otherwise, one of his spells is limited to his specialty which may or may not be helpful in a given day.

2) Although they have the same number of their highest level spell, the specialist Wizard has fewer of his lower level spells per day.

A specialist wizard gains more versatility IF he picks the proper spells for the day. The sorcerer gains more lower level spells and can pick and choose from several each time (of which he tends to pick the most versatile spells anyway). Wizards tend to pick versatile spells, but also tend to not have the right spell available more often (at low levels). What good is the memorized Sleep spell against Undead?

Sorcerers rarely have no spells for the situation at low level. Wizards often have spells memorized that might be totally ineffective because they cannot swap them out. This often lowers their number of spells per day that are useful.

And at Odd levels, the Wizard has more high level spells and has more powerful spells.

And that's without spending a dime on spell books - just the two free spells the wizard gets each level. The Wizard also has the ability to spend time and equipment to upgrade his versatility to be able to mimic even more different Sorcerers throughout the week (though still only one per day) - and of course the Sorcerer can't do that.

The Sorcerer has more restricted magic, and at the crucial high levels can cast less of it. That's a fact - the flavor text that he gets more spells per day is a lie which is countermanded by the slower spell progression.

If you say so. Personally, the two or three extra spells of higher level for odd levels tends to balance out with the two or three or more extra spells of lower levels for even levels.

Specialist Wizards are more powerful on odd levels (except level one). Sorcerers are more powerful on even levels until mid level.

Metamagic is not a consideration at low level. I am unable to understand how "has less magic and can cast it at a lower level" is in any way an advantage at low level. Or any level. If perhaps your Wizards traditionally pick dumb spells and the Sorcerers pick good spells that would be true. But there's no reason for that to happen - Wizards and Sorcerers pick off the same spell list.

No, meta-magic is a major consideration at mid levels.

Sorcerers basically are more powerful on levels 1, 2, 4, and 6 out of the first 6 levels.

Specialist wizards basically are more powerful on levels 3 and 5 out of the first 6 levels.

But, level 6 is where meta-magic starts to first really come into its own. Specialist wizards typically have at most a few meta-magic spells per day (if any). Sorcerers can effectively increase their repertoire of spells with meta-magic.

Caught in the middle of a Silence spell, a 6th level Wizard (specialist or non-specialist) is typically dead meat and unable to cast a single spell. The Sorcerer with the Silent Spell feat is still functioning. It all depends on how well you design the Sorcerer. Sure, you could give the Silent Spell feat to a Wizard, but most players do not even consider it due to how limited its functionality is (i.e. it is like lowering every spell slot level you assign a spell in it to, hence, fewer higher level spells). Even if a Wizard has this feat, he might only assign one or a few spells with it (if any). If he gets caught in a Silence spell, he might still be unable to cast spells, even if he has the feat. The Sorcerer with that feat doesn't have this problem.

You run out of torches at low level in a dungeon, you are often in the dark with any Wizard. With a Sorcerer, you typically have either Light or Dancing Light available. Of course this is no longer a problem at level three for Wizards who take Continual Flame (if they want to use a precious level two spell on this) or Clerics at level five. But before then, if your Clerics and/or Wizards are taking Light spells, they are not taking something else and even if they take them, they only last 10 minutes per level. An hour later and most low level parties without a Sorcerer will be out of light.

Ditto for Detect Magic. Low level wizards can often only do it once per day (if that).

Ditto for Read Magic. Find a cache of scrolls, the wizard might be able to read some of them and now have them for use (maybe). Find a second cache and it is rare that the wizard can read any more.

No doubt about it. Specialist wizards (and eventually even non-specialist wizards) become more powerful straight up due to their versatility at mid to high levels. But this is not true at low level. Versatility per spell slot at low level is more critical than versatility overall, unlike mid to high level. At low level, Magic Missile will damage just about any opponent.

But, your low level Wizards will still often study multiple different spells of every level, just to be ready for anything. Unfortunately, this versatility is the same thing that forces them to cast substandard spells in many situations because the situation they were envisioning does not come to pass. This can also happen with Sorcerers, but it happens a lot less often since they almost exclusively pick the most versatile (or powerful) spells available at every level.