Abusable character?

[TracerBullet42]

So I've recently started running the Savage Tide campaign. I had them start out as 2nd level PCs, so as to keep the potential TPK a little less likely from happening.

One of the players is a pretty heavy power-gamer. He has chosen to make a multiclass dwarven cleric/wizard.

Now, i don't think that the PC will be a powerhouse by any means. Instead of becoming a powerful cleric or wizard, he's going to only be half of both. The other players, however, are a little concerned about his "perfect" PC. Sure, right now, at 2nd level, he looks pretty powerful. But give it a few levels and his divided attention will start to show through.

At least, that's what I think.

Is this an abusable class combo? Of what sort of things should I be concerned? Any PrCs or feats of which I should be wary? I have no problem saying no to any feats or PrCs, but I thought I'd pitch it here to see if there's any problems anyone else has noticed.

Thanks, EnWorld. You rock!

 

[Shayuri]

Mew. Wait until next level when the purebloods are slinging level 2 spells and he's slogging at level 1.

Ditto for future spell levels.

Or when he has to boost Intelligence AND Wisdom (and Cha if he wants to turn undead).

That's not to say it -can't- be abused. But the combo in and of itself isn't abusive.

 

[drothgery]

A cleric/wizard multiclass is pretty nearly the ultimate in anti-powergaming. In fact, he's probably going to need to take Mystic Theurge later to be reasonably effective.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Mew. Wait until next level when the purebloods are slinging level 2 spells and he's slogging at level 1.

Ditto for future spell levels.

Or when he has to boost Intelligence AND Wisdom (and Cha if he wants to turn undead).

That's not to say it -can't- be abused. But the combo in and of itself isn't abusive.

True.

He did, however, produce some crazy ability scores, and he opted to be "aged" for the bonus to INT, WIS, and CHA. But multiple ability dependancy won't be so big an issue.

And there are no other casters in the group. The group consists of a swashbuckler, a rogue, a marshal (minis handbook), and the aforementioned PC. So there will be no other casters to enduce a little good-natured jealousy.

I don't think it will be much of an issue, but I figued I poll the collective minds here.

 

[TracerBullet42]

That's not to say it -can't- be abused. But the combo in and of itself isn't abusive.

Also, that's a big point for this thread...I'm sure it can be abused. How so? I want to know for what to be on the lookout so that it doesn't reach that point.

I get the feeling that he'll try. He's already tried selling me on the "If I'm playing an older character, shouldn't I get more skill points to show for the extra life I've lived?" That one was easy to catch, but I'm leery of what else might not be so easy...

 

[Voadam]

At very high levels in mystic theurge he gets a lot of close to high spells and have enough spell slots to have a lot of utility/or combat spells ready (which can also be handled by scrolls though so not a big deal except for caster level). That's about as powerful as it gets.

Anything that lets him burn spell slots for a power could be fueled by a lot of spell slots . . . eventually.

This is not one to worry about power wise and is arguably a great party support role for this group as the only caster. Nobody else will be slinging around significant healing or offensive spells so giving up pure power to handle both roles suboptimally is taking one for the team. He will monopolize the claiming of wands though.

Unless there is a bard, ranger, or paladin in the group (someone who can use cure light wounds wands) he will be the only healer and vulnerable to being taken out in combat and crippling the party's recuperation abilities.

 

[Oryan77]

He's already tried selling me on the "If I'm playing an older character, shouldn't I get more skill points to show for the extra life I've lived?"

Man I hate when players try to get free crap for nothing. This guy is already powergaming the old-age angle simply to get better bonuses.

You should tell him, "No, you don't get bonus skill points because you didn't start training those skills until later in life, which is why you don't get bonus spells or anything. But, you do have lots of penalties to skills. Being old, your eyesight is worse so you take a -4 to spot & search. People aren't usually afraid of the elderly, so your intimidate drops -10. You also are much slower than you were in your younger days, so your speed drops by 10-ft."

I had a player that tried getting free bonuses all the time. I'd say things like that to shut him up. If he wants to dissect stats for realism, I'll have to dissect them in the negative direction also.

 

[Voadam]

What do you allow for spells? Core only? Core + Spell Compendium? Specific sources? Anything?

How do you handle cleric spell lists and non core spells? This can increase the power of clerics a bunch by offering a ton more flexibility in spell power application.

I know Spells and Magic by Bastion Press has some spells that work better if you have a ton of spell slots (free action instantaneous spells that act like metamagic feats for other spells IIRC).

 

[Shayuri]

I'd be careful of Divine Metamagic.

I don't recall exactly, but I don't think the feat restricts itself to divine spells.

You could find your dwarf burning (all but useless otherwise) turn undead checks to cast Quickened Disintegrates someday.

Otherwise, Voadam's right. He's not gonna be broken, and will in fact be pretty hamstringed unless he does the Theurge road...and will even then be behind the curve in terms of raw POWER. I suppose combos like Arcane Strike (burns arcane spell slots) + Divine Power + Righteous Might could still be pretty fracking mean...but I wouldn't call it unbalanced. It's using his resources still.

You might encourage the rogue to invest in Use Magic Device and get a healstick. Only having one healer, who also is a blaster (and thus attracts lots of attention) can really -suck- for the group.

 

[Peni Griffin]

Funnily enough, I was just thinking today that, though I don't normally multiclass, it might be worthwhile sometime to run a cleric of a god with the magic domain and multiclass with either wizard or sorcerer, so I could have a familiar deliver healing spells at range. (No, I haven't checked yet to see if that's a viable use of the familiar in the RAW - I don't carry the books to work. I bet I could sell anybody who's likely to DM me on it, though.) Whether wizard or sorcerer, and whether the class was a dip or a commitment, would depend on the character concept. Multiclassing with wizard makes sense for a cleric of Boccob, for example, and gives me Scribe Scroll for free, but almost requires a character who advances in both classes equally, while multiclassing with sorcerer calls for a whole different backstory and approach and makes more sense for a dip class - the natural arcane caster who got religion. If I am ever in the position of being the party's only caster, I will almost certainly do this, as the combo would be flexible and extraordinarily valuable to the party.

Anyway, the problem, dear Brutus, is not in the character but in the player. I believe I have said elsewhere on the board that I've known players who could be effective running a first-level commoner and players who couldn't accomplish a thing with a 20/20/20 fighter/rogue/wizard with maxed stats and twice the recommended daily allowance of magic items. The same holds with character/rules abuse. If the player likes to push the rules, scrape for advantage, and wheedle things out of the DM, he'll find ways to do so with the simplest character concept you can force on him.

That being the case, it is in the nature of this sort of player to come up with off-the-wall things that no one can predict. If he's like that, our advice here can only prepare you for his simplest inspirations. If he's really your friend, though, when you look him in the eye and say: "Look, I know you like milking the rules, but don't push it, 'cause that spoils it for me," then whenever he starts to exceed your comfort level, and you tell him he's starting to push it, he'll back off - at least he will if you've accommodated his play style as far as you comfortably can. You won't get anywhere by going for the automatic "no," which will only make him feel picked on.

If he's really bad at seeing how his actions affect you, you may have to throw a tantrum at him once. It sucks, but this works on some people when nothing else will. (I wish I didn't know this.) If it looks like it's getting bad - if the thought of DMing him makes your stomach hurt or your hands tremble, or you brace yourself against mental pain every time he pipes up with "Oh, I had this idea," I suggest throwing your temper away in a controlled manner at an opportune time so it doesn't break out uncontrollably in the middle of game.