Abusing Cleave?

[nute]

Drop doesn't mean "remove from combat". It means dropping them to the ground. So teleport wouldn't work, but a sleep spell might. Perhaps a Spellsword who channels Sleep through their weapon as they attack.

The trouble with the RAW is that they leave it unclear - I'd say anything that allows the weapon to keep going with momentum triggers a cleave. Usually that's the opponent falling down from 0 HP. Using Sleep is functionally similar to being knocked out, so I'd say it would qualify.

But basically, anything other than being killed or at 0 HP is outside of the RAW specifics, and probably falls in the realm of house rulings.

I can see some functional problems if you try and think about it TOO realistically. How does one Cleave with a piercing weapon, for instance?

 

[erdamon]

I also dont think "teleport" would trigger a cleave. Just eye-balling it:

I would count weapons that trigger effects like sleep, stoning, a stat drain to 0, stun, etc..

I wouldnt count effects like charm, fear, teleport, or polymorph.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Of course, the other arguement is that the damage you deal to the target is what has to make it drop for Cleave to work. So a spell triggered through a weapon probably would not work (unless it was a spell that did damage).

 

[Len]

Of course, the other arguement is that the damage you deal to the target is what has to make it drop for Cleave to work. So a spell triggered through a weapon probably would not work (unless it was a spell that did damage).

I agree with that interpretation.

Heck, it's not like Cleave is under-powered even with a restrictive reading of this rule.

 

[Arcadio]

The trouble with the RAW is that they leave it unclear - I'd say anything that allows the weapon to keep going with momentum triggers a cleave.

I don't think it has anything to do with momentum. If you drop someone by stabbing them with your rapier, you can then stab the guy on the other side of you.

The way I see it, by dropping one of your opponents, who you'd otherwise have to keep defending against, you've now got some time on your hands. Not enough to do anything normally, but the Cleave feat has taught you to use that time to attack someone else.

As you said, the RAW leaves it unclear. I think "Cleave" is just a bad name for the feat.

 

[focallength]

another example of people taking something so simple and trying to complicate it, trying to see how many loopholes they can find. Its simple you kill your opponent you get an extra attack.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, it comes pretty close at mid-high levels--especially for characters who don't pump their strengths up to 30+ and have some kind of improved power attack thing going on. I know my 15th level character got only 1 or 2 uses out of cleave from levels 15-16.

I agree with that interpretation.

Heck, it's not like Cleave is under-powered even with a restrictive reading of this rule.

 

[Philip]

Does the 'dropping' part mean you cannot use Cleave when your opponents are prone?

 

[sullivan]

another example of people taking something so simple and trying to complicate it, trying to see how many loopholes they can find. Its simple you kill your opponent you get an extra attack.

Come on. At the very least using a weapon to knock out someone with nonlethal damage should activate the Cleave feat. A spell storing weapon activating and getting the kill might be pushing it, depending on which spell. But then again what about Fire/Ice/etc. Bursting weapons. If that extra damage is what puts them down do you not allow the cleave? A spell that does direct damage, ya I'd allow it. Teleport....I can't see allowing. That isn't making it "drop" due to damage. Even if a 100' fall after being teleported into midair killed the opponent I'd rule that indirect damage isn't in the same vein as a weapon's damaging special abilities.

Nor would I count something that forced the opponent away via feats, etc. Likewise I wouldn't allow a Trip or something else that put the opponent in a prone but concious position.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, it comes pretty close at mid-high levels--especially for characters who don't pump their strengths up to 30+ and have some kind of improved power attack thing going on. I know my 15th level character got only 1 or 2 uses out of cleave from levels 15-16.

Huh? Do you mean Cleave, or Great Cleave?

Or is it just that you fought a lot of single creatures, rather than three or four creatures?

Any time you're engaged by more than one opponent, Cleave should come into play at least once in the combat... when you eventually whittle the first one down, even if it's in the fifth round, you'll get one extra attack on the second one...?

-Hyp.