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Abyss versus Far Realm

Hussar

Legend
ZombieRoboNinja said:
IMO, the Far Realms aren't really "chaotic" so much as they are "inscrutable."

The Abyss is the ultimate locus of brutality, rage, and hatred, entropy and destruction. When you make a deal with a demon, you know exactly what he's after in the long run. He wants to tear the world apart.

The Far Realms is... strange. It's a world whose laws, whose very logic is utterly different from our own, such that any extended visit there invites madness in all but the most trained minds.

I'm not sure if anyone would get the reference, but the Far Realms makes me think of the spider from China Mieville's Perdido Street Station even more than I think of Lovecraft. Far Realms denizens are in fact sane and often very intelligent, but their world and their understanding of the universe is so utterly removed from our own that we can't begin to hope to treat with them. All we can know is that Far Realms creatures are incredibly powerful and utterly unpredictable.

Yeah, I could totally see that. The Spider isn't evil, just completely weird with totally unknowable goals. I see the Far Realms as and M C Escher painting after a REALLY bad trip.

Not evil, or pissed off, just, very, very strange.

The abyss and those that live in it are sometimes very strange, but, they're always really angry.
 

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Death Dealer

First Post
Jonathan Moyer said:
I'll be interested in seeing how they differentiate the Far Realm and Abyss as well.

The main difference I can see is that the Far Realm houses many Lovecraftian beings and seems inimical to reality as we know it, but as a rule it doesn't seem "evil." It's just a strange place whose laws of physics run counter to our own. Or, alternatively, it operates on vastly different laws and what we see as evil isn't necessarily evil in the Far Realm.

Now, some inhabitants of the Far Realm (aboleths and mind flayers) wish to do ill and harm. But I can see the possibility of abberations who are "good" or at least not actively wishing to do harm. They just have an essentially different perspective on things.

The Abyss is actively evil and seeks the destruction of the universe. So in theory, demons would seek the destruction of the Far Realm in addition to all other things. So it's all about utter nihilism and ceaseless hate.

The Abyss is a giant hole in the Elemntal Chaos. Demons are Elementals who were sucked into/corrupted by the Abyss. They are the primordial "Evil" who's purpose is chaos & destruction.
The Far Realms is the realm of madness. Some things may be evil, but most are probably unaligned. Creatures of the Far Realm are too alien to mortals to think in terms of good & evil. They are uncaring in terms of human/mortal ethics.
 

SpiderMonkey

Explorer
Robert Ranting said:
Does anyone else remember the bit of information we got a while back about how the Abyss was formed when Tharzidun threw something terrible into the Elemental Chaos and it broke through the fabric of the plane? Well, think of it this way. The Abyss is like a hole in a piece of paper. On one side, the one we understand, is the Elemental Chaos and the realms of reality as we know them. On the other side is the Far Realm, a universe that does not play by our rules. If you think of the entirety of the planar cosmology as being contained within a finite (but so large as makes no difference) space, then the Far Realm is all that lies beyond it...or another sphere entirely seperate across the void...and the Abyss is the entryway or a wormhole, the place where the madness of that place has touched the elemental chaos. Just as when you stand in a doorway you are in neither room, so is being in the Abyss being caught between two alien universes.

The Far Realm is not a place of insanity, evil, destruction or tentacle monsters. That is just how our brains try to interpret the ab-light that ab-reflects off their ab-surfaces. Our brains simply were never rigged to perceive such things, so our minds go into overdrive, trying to conjure up something, anything, that makes more sense than what our senses are trying to tell us. Everything you experience in the Far Realms is a hysterical delusion crafted by your own mind in a vain effort to save you from true madness. Some people, especially the incredibly unintelligent and vapid, might even peer into the Far Realm and see nothing at all (Zaphod anyone?). Most people simply can't cope with the experience and lose touch with reality. If something so alien can exist, can be so traumatic to even attempt to perceive, truly it must be evil...or at least that is what we think. In fact, the Far Realm simply "is" in a way that nothing else in our universe "is" and may or may not care about us...we simply don't know, and we can't ask it/them.

Creatures such as Aboleths, Mind Flayers, Mooncalves and other creatures of the Far Realm are tainted by this universe. The powers which hold our universe together, decree that all that exists must conform to certain rules, rules of Magi-Physics and Alignment. Forced to conform, but railing at the very notion, they always result in hideous abominations, composite creatures out of nightmare that push the boundary of what is possible in our universe. Often, characters encounter such creatures before they visit the Far Realm, and thus, the guises of the Far Realm's lost children in our universe bias the thoughts of what the Far Realm will be like. Tentacles creatures become our frame of reference for the Far Realm, and so if we go there expecting them, then it is easy for our minds to dredge up similar images once it is faced with ab-reality.

You can also think of the Demons as being Chaos Cultists. They have looked into the Far Realm, and upon returning, they have gone mad in a more conventional sense. Unable to articulate the feelings of helplessness and terror, they act out violently against all around them. Their primitive minds simply cannot distinguish between the desire to fight or flee...and so they do both, attempting to move away from the Far Realm, deeper in our universe, and to take their misery out on us all.

It is not surprising then, that a few corrupted Primordials, the so-called Demon Lords would try and command the demons as an army, to give direction and purpose to their mindless violence by aiming it at the Gods and their creations. So fundamentally rooted in the nature of the world, and wise from their long existance and power, these Demon Lords dip into the Abyss while averting their eyes from the Far Realm. They lead by looking away from the gap, back toward our universe. It gives them enough focus and clear vision to keep on waging their war against creation. True, they seek to unmake all that has been made, but they do not seek to help the Far Realm's reality prevail. If they thought they had a chance, they might try to invade the Far Realm and extinguish it's maddening influence forever as well...perhaps they have tried and failed many times since the Abyss was born. Perhaps their impotence in being able to do so is what drives them to destroy this universe, a tangible, perceivable, comprehensible thing that they actually can destroy.

In any case, this is pretty much what the universe was like in my last couple of homebrews, and I will probably stick with something similar in 4e.

Robert "Thinks that you could easily put both The Demonweb Pits and Hell Into This Mess Too" Ranting

My hero! And btw, "Yoink!"
 


Orius

Legend
I use the Far Realm IMC, and it's not a place of destruction or evil or any of that. It exists beyond and outside the normal planes, it's a higher level of existance in which the known multiverse occupies a small pocket. A very small, infinitesimal pocket at that. It existed long before the planes existed, and will exist long after the plaes have died. The mortal races simply aren't evolved enough to even begin to understand the reality of the Far Realm, and encountering it destroys their minds.
 



Lonely Tylenol

First Post
Robert Ranting said:
Does anyone else remember the bit of information we got a while back about how the Abyss was formed when Tharzidun threw something terrible into the Elemental Chaos and it broke through the fabric of the plane? Well, think of it this way. The Abyss is like a hole in a piece of paper. On one side, the one we understand, is the Elemental Chaos and the realms of reality as we know them. On the other side is the Far Realm, a universe that does not play by our rules. If you think of the entirety of the planar cosmology as being contained within a finite (but so large as makes no difference) space, then the Far Realm is all that lies beyond it...or another sphere entirely seperate across the void...and the Abyss is the entryway or a wormhole, the place where the madness of that place has touched the elemental chaos. Just as when you stand in a doorway you are in neither room, so is being in the Abyss being caught between two alien universes.
*snip*
In any case, this is pretty much what the universe was like in my last couple of homebrews, and I will probably stick with something similar in 4e.

Robert "Thinks that you could easily put both The Demonweb Pits and Hell Into This Mess Too" Ranting
Nice stuff. All this is exactly what I like about the Far Realms, and why I'm happy they've decided to carry them forward.
 

Stoat

Adventurer
There is an inherent tension between the Far Realms and the Abyss, and I am interested to see how WotC attempts to resolve it.

The Abyss, and the Great Wheel as a whole, is both moral and anthropomorphic. By "moral" I refer to the Great Wheel's concern with alignment. Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are objective elements and each is in some way inherent to the multiverse. Thus the Abyss exists as part of a philosophical outlook that is intensely concerned with the concepts of objective morality. It is in many ways similar to the concept of "hell" as found in any number of real world religions.

By "anthropormorphic" I mean two things. First, the natives of the Abyss generally have emotional and psychological states that are recognizable to mortals. They hate, they scheme, they lust. In some cases, Abyssal lords are personifications of mortal sin. Malcanthet is lust made flesh. Kostchtchie is an incarnation of anger and hate. Consider Savage Tide, the numerous demon lords presented there are evil, but they reason, form alliances, betray one another and otherwise act in an understandable way. The second thing I mean by "anthropomorphic" is that natives of the Abyss are interested in the prime material plane. They seek to steal our souls. They want to conquer the land. They set up kingdoms and realms in the mortal world. Again, consider the Savage Tide.

On the other hand, the Far Realm, when it is at its most Lovecraftian, is neither moral nor anthropomorphic. Lovecraft was an atheist and a skeptic. His creations are decidedly amoral. His universe does not contain objective good and evil. Things won't go well for us when Cthulhu awakens, but Cthulhu isn't Lucifer. The greater entities, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, are more like forces of nature than demons. This amoral worldview is incompatable with the objective morality inherent in the Great Wheel.

Nor are Lovecraftian creatures anthropomorphic. For the most part, they lack recognizable personality or emotion. It cannot be said that Cthulhu is a personification of any mortal ideal. The Color out of Space may or may not be sentient. Azathoth is a blind idiot. Nor are mythos beings particularly concerned with earth or humanity. To the contrary, Lovecraft's horror is based on humanity's insignficance.

In summary: the Abyss and the Far Realm are products of two different and incompatible world views. The Abyss envisions a moral multiverse where the actions of humanity are significant. The Far Realm envisions an amoral multiverse which cares nothing for humanity.

Of course, we know that 4E is removing the great wheel and sharply curtailing the importance of alignment, and I suspect that the Abyss will wind up looking more like the Far Realms as a result.
 

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