ACK! I Hate level 15!!

[Belbarid]

ACK!!

I'm at the very crazy and unpredictable level 15 and beyond stage. Trying to come up with fun and challenging encounters and my brain has decided to go on autopilot. It's that age of a PC where they can either handle a CR 20 with ease or get smashed by and EL 12 depending on what they're up against. :\ What have you done to make fun and challenging encounters at this stage?

I can tell you some of the things going on in the High Level campaign I'm in- some good, some bad.

One of the things our DM has done is creating high-level "Bad Guy" adventuring parties. Armed with nasty templates, powerful gear, and pre-determined tactics based on an almost complete knowledge of the PC's and their abilities, these groups can be rough. Problem in this case is twofold. Number one, our DM is great with tactics, if we react the way he thinks we will, and can stick to his plans. If we do something unexpected and throw him off, it's Munch Time. Secondly, he's forgetful. Like "Oh crap, that Rogue/Invisible Blade had 9d6 Sneak attack that I forgot to roll" kind of forgetful. He tends to use fighter-types as screens for flying/improved invisible/displaced/mirror imaged mages- although we've seen less of that after my character combined Blindsight with a vertitble shower of poisoned shuriken.

Along previously suggested lines, though, we're now in the middle of a massive peace movement. A particular kingdom is facing a three front war that they are holding their own in. We are currently trying to negotiate a 4-way peace settlement because we happen to know that an overwhelmingly powerful invasion force from overseas is being planned. We set back those plans, but can't prevent them, so we are trying to help the kingdoms face this new threat. Which involves getting them to believe in the new threat. And making peace with each other. And working together. And building up armies. And finding ways to transport them over some of the least convienient terrain I've seen in a home-grown campaign setting. None of which involves actual fighting, but is all challenging as hell. How do we convince the Lich-King of Kingdom I-Forget-The-Name to start giving a crap about the living? Or the nation of Xond, which is made up of Psions who were violently cast out of all the other nations generations ago, and are BITTER AS HELL about it. Or the Elven nation, which is perfectly content to let the world around them burn, as long as they don't have to get involved. Or the nation of Orcs/Ogres/etc who might just decide to help the invasion force?

You get my drift. We may not see another initiative roll for some time now, but we certainly haven't run out of challenges.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Having goals where sheer power isn't the answer is the way to go.

In the Lord of the Rings movies for example, how many times is Strider or any of the main characters in mortal danger? It's usually the events around them that are causing problems.

Sure, they killed 1K orcs but they still weren't able to completely stop the monsters in their tracks.

The idea about hill giants invading several towns at once for example, is a good ideas as it prevents the players from being everywhere and doing everything.

At this level, it's a lot easier for the GM to be able to role play than roll play with characters who have contacts, allies, family members, etc... Monsters are almost a secondary byproduct of higher level play, but when they come into play, they should be dangerous.

What about a rival group or guild of similiar but opposite build? When the party gets to a new location, they find that the place has already been looting. Looking for more info, they discover that the people who did it live on a pirate island and are local heroes so they can't just jump in there and kick a and take names.

 

[Mystery Man]

Give the characters the ability to be retired with dignity. Give them a goal; you want your keep and lands, maybe a lordship? The party members maybe want to open a joint business? Maybe a bar in some huge city or in remote area? Maybe on another plane who knows? Maybe the party members want to open a business each the fighter wants to open a war college? The wizard a wizard school, the psion a psi temple? Have them find a perfect town...

Interestingly enough they were just awarded land and title by the Marchion of Mirabar (you don't need to know who he is) to run and defend as they see fit. They haven't had to defend it, nor have they paid they're taxes on it, yet.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

OK, I can kind of see your problem. You have lots of damage output, but only the paladin can take a punch. So really, the question for the group is "can we kill the beastie before the holy boy buys it?"

Tricky.

This isn't terrible though. What I was really worried about was if you had a druid. You can toss this party pretty much anywhere. Maybe the astral? Githyanki are always up for a good time. Which may be somethign else to consider. If you haven't used psi by now, you can introduce it and scare the bejeezers out of the party as they try to cope with this "new magic". Don't actually tell them its psi and don't let them know you're using the psi rules. Just have a whole bunch of Psi-Warriors get all matrix on their butt and have your Big Bad End Boss protected by psions or whatever. That'll throw 'em.

EDIT: Apparently MM came up with a similar idea just seconds before I did! Coincidence? Or are we forming a hive mind?

Or a cleric....

Psionic characters can be nasty..... my DM created one who was basically "Yoda"; he was a green-skinned goblinoid with psionic powers out the wazoo. He messed with the previous party when they were low-level (before that party met our epic characters and a few gods and all, save for my paladin, 'freaked out' and left the group afterwards...). The psion was meant to be a challenge to the EPIC party and woulda wiped the fey'ri sorceress all over the ground and noone could stop him.

there are plenty of higher level monsters in the monster manuals (III has some NASTY critters... including one our 15th level party is now having to chase down the two that ran off)

 

[Runesong42]

My most recent high level characters recently finished Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. My advice - don't ever play through it if you hate dungeons. If at all possible, beg your DM to skip "the caverns" and go straight to "the Outer Fane". He/she'll know what you mean.

After its completion, my char's are now level 16 (Rogue 5/Fighter 5/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6 and Cleric 8/Sunlord 9) and wondering what do next. The great thing about high-level play is your wealth of opportunities. The bad thing is your wealth of opportunities.

Seriously, though, at that level of play, your players should (hopefully) want to accomplish more for their characters than kill bigger/more monsters. If not, just keep sending the hordes and let the dice fall where they may. The Diablo "camapagn setting" would be perfect for this kind of thing.

But I see you've given them land now, which is good. But don't let it go easy for them.

As an example, here's what's going on in the aftermath of my RttToEE adventures:

The continent is partitioned into several states, which were awared to various family members after the passing of the King. The Big Bad was dissatisfied with her piece, and vowed to take it all in revenge. She's winning - most of "the free world" has been conquered by her and her array of fiendish (literal and figurative) troops. There are still several areas as of yet untouched - the Dwarven Kingdoms (your typical mountainous strongholds), the Elven Forests (Elves are rare in this campaign, and it's kind of their last bastion of defense), and the Badlands. The Badlands is a large piece of relatively worthless territory that acts as a buffer between the Elves, Dwarves, and neighbors a few of the (as of yet) unconquered-by-the-Big-Bad territories. The Big Bad is taking the long route as she conquers, basically skirting the edges of the continent and making her way to the middle. As such, this Badlands area has loose claims by everyone who borders it, but because it's not that valuable, no one has enforced their claim as of yet.

My characters Jarl (the Ninja) and Amberlee (The Sunlady) earned a boon from the Dwarves for clearing out the Temple, and Amberlee chose to have a church built to her deity (in this campaign, Taelisha, who is essentially a female Pelor). These two have lived in the Badlands their whole lives, and don't want to see it conquered.

Now, as if crap wasn't happening already, the Big Bad had made an alliance with the Orcish hordes, and the Orcs have decided they want the Badlands for themselves. So, the Big Bad sends the Orcs to go and demand the surrender of the various villages in the Badlands, or to raze them if they do not surrender. This has caused a number of homeless refugees left to scatter and become nomadic. Since the other states are busy warring with the main forces of the Big Bad, they cannot respond in kind to the slow rape of "their" Badlands.

Amberlee has decided that she is going to rally these survivors and create a fortress for their protection. Jarl decides that claim-jumping and forming thier own state is the best idea. With the aid of a local and wildly successful Merchant-King, and the trade of mining rights for the Badlands in exchange for troops and support from the Dwarves, she has begun to build the beginning of what will be, campaign-wise, the last-ditch effort to quell the tide of darkness.

This is the stuff which high-level campaigns are made of. Highly political, where any action the PCs make affects the world at large, and other high-level NPCs take notice and react to said actions. Everything the PCs do has a consequence.

Try to reinforce this point. The Hill Giant example given earlier rocks, as it has the potential to be both high-action and very dramatic, especially if you divvy up the PC's and send each one to defend a separate village. If succcessful this could award tem with a) prestige b) NPC support and C) a base to start building their empire. Of course, one the PC's gain fame, NPC's will being to bother them for all sorts of aid, both fantastic and mundane. Drive this point home, and your players will always have stuff to do.

Hope this helps!
Dru

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think your problem is that you don't have a real high level party. You've got a bunch of guys with lots of hitpoints and blasting powers.

Unless the fist of raziel does something I don't know about, your party has:

No divination of much worth. I'm guessing the sorcerors haven't really taken any divination spells, and I'm pretty sure your paladin has no access either. THIS is what makes those comparatively low-level encounters a problem: The encounters are probably that level because it's expected that you will both know how to deal with them and have the resources.

No healing of much worth. The ability to get the entire party back on their feet again in a single cast (even if they are only on low hitpoints) is invaluable to a high level party.

No flexibility. Would I be right in assuming that the sorcerors have a limited range of spells focussing on a particular theme? Specifically that they've got blasty spells and sneaky spells and not much else? This really ties in to my first point.

Frankly, I think that (standard) high level play (as presented in published modules) is suited only to the most cautious, careful and tactically-minded of players. If everyone is just in a "who can do the most damage in a round" mindset, they'll die.

So - your solution is one of these:
1) Change the party mindset. This is really difficult. Really, really difficult. It'll probably require a lot of deaths and some crafty NPC roles. If you've got allies of the PCs, kill a few, and then have the remaining ones lament "if only we'd done a divination! We'd have seen this coming" or some such thing. Use monsters the party can't hurt without the right stuff.

2) Go back to low levels. This DOESN'T have to mean that the campaign ends. You could always branch the campaign to a new party who clean up the little stuff the big guys don't bother with, or use some plot magic to reduce the existing characters back to low levels (although that's not recommended...). Or just kill them all a lot... Again, not recommended.

3) Write high level adventures that are pitched just right. Things to watch for: Any monster with an ability that would be easily avoided with JUST the right spell - energy drain, paralysis, big melee bruisers without ranged attacks or flight, invisibility, death attacks, poisons, flight etc. Check whether the party has the spell - if they do, reduce the CR of the monster by a lot. If they don't, increase the CR of the monster by a lot. These monsters are balanced with the assumption that the magic to defeat them will be available, but that it will take some effort to have it ready. If the party doesn't have it, the encounter is far more difficult. If the (your) party DOES have it, the encounter is far easier. Allow easy access to scrolls. When your party get their ass handed to them by an ability, point out the counters to it and make them available.

4) Keep going, kill them a lot and drive the point home or return to lower levels that way...

 

[Mystery Man]

I think your problem is that you don't have a real high level party. You've got a bunch of guys with lots of hitpoints and blasting powers.

Right on the nose.

Unless the fist of raziel does something I don't know about, your party has:
No divination of much worth. I'm guessing the sorcerors haven't really taken any divination spells, and I'm pretty sure your paladin has no access either.

Any divination has to be commissioned.<sigh>

No healing of much worth. The ability to get the entire party back on their feet again in a single cast (even if they are only on low hitpoints) is invaluable to a high level party.

It takes an extra round sometimes to get healed up leaving them vulnerable. And its very expensive.

No flexibility. Would I be right in assuming that the sorcerors have a limited range of spells focussing on a particular theme? Specifically that they've got blasty spells and sneaky spells and not much else?

I'm of the opinion that sorcerers at high levels are absolutley useless for anything but fancy fireball spells.

Frankly, I think that (standard) high level play (as presented in published modules) is suited only to the most cautious, careful and tactically-minded of players. If everyone is just in a "who can do the most damage in a round" mindset, they'll die.

They'll be quite dead soon then.

So - your solution is one of these:
<snip!>

All great advice.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm of the opinion that sorcerers at high levels are absolutley useless for anything but fancy fireball spells.

I'd disagree with that: They make great battlefield control, party buffers, and have the potential for some neat outside-combat roles, but I'd say that it's very, very easy for a sorceror to fall into the trap of being a blaster and never escape.

 

[S'mon]

Hmm. I had this problem too. Less dungeon-bashing (despite WotC's claims, 3e high-level dungeon-bashing doesn't work at all well IMO, Diablo did it better), more roleplaying, more mover-&-shaker politics - let your PCs lead (or destroy) armies, topple thrones, carve out vast empires, that kind of thing. Encounters with EL 15+ monsters should be rare & memorable, generally better to use groups of lower-CR critters.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Have you considered encouraging a player or two to take Leadership and pick up appropriate cohorts? A cleric would make an excellent addition the party and with the right domains would be a reasonable sidekick to any member of the party.