ACK! I Hate level 15!!

[Mystery Man]

I've tried, one of them really needs too. I'm going to try again.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Have an encounter with a lower-level party equipped with a cleric. Show them how well a cleric augments a party by beating them over the head with it, literally.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm at the very crazy and unpredictable level 15 and beyond stage. Trying to come up with fun and challenging encounters and my brain has decided to go on autopilot. It's that age of a PC where they can either handle a CR 20 with ease or get smashed by and EL 12 depending on what they're up against. :\ What have you done to make fun and challenging encounters at this stage?

Well, I only briefly attempted to run something at that high level, and it seemed a nightmare. The biggest problem for me perhaps is not even the PC's powers but the NPC's powers. If you play the monsters/villains honestly (i.e. you have them cast their best spells, use their best strategies, etc.) they can often shred the PCs to pieces within a couple of rounds, and the players are likely to complain that the encounter wasn't fair.

I haven't done that but I think a possible solution is not to use BBEG at that level (unless you downplay them), and instead try massive encounters with lots of lower-level monsters, which would probably turn the adventure into an endurance effort rather than the typical D&D.

 

[S'mon]

I haven't done that but I think a possible solution is not to use BBEG at that level (unless you downplay them), and instead try massive encounters with lots of lower-level monsters, which would probably turn the adventure into an endurance effort rather than the typical D&D.

BBEGs of CR 2+ over party level will often shred the PCs, yup. Massive encounters are a lot more plausible than 3e's expectation of always fighting 1-12 foes, but 3e's minis-centric approach makes them a pain to run. The best battles at this level tend to be with a small group of tough NPCs, maybe with some trivial mooks (CR 8+ under party level) around as scenery. A good NPC group would be a leader around the same level as the party (& not too min-maxed), with several henchmen 2-3 levels below the party, maybe including a monster or two of suitable CR. This would likely be the only real battle in the day, so it can be tough. Eg:
vs a party of 4 level 15s, a 15th-level Wizard BBEG with a Fighter-12 (or eg a Fire Giant), a Rogue-12, & a Cleric-13 as henchmen, and some Warrior-6 mook guards as scenery, would likely be a good fight, probably winnable unless the bad guys got the drop on the PCs.

 

[Li Shenron]

BBEGs of CR 2+ over party level will often shred the PCs, yup.

At low level it is still manageable however... I have the feeling that at high level is not so manegeable anymore, even if the BBEG is same level as the characters. If you play him at your best (without metagaming yourself, of course), it's easy to kill a PC every battle. Of course, then there's resurrection spells, but not everyone likes using them on a daily basis.

However, have you noticed also that several published adventures occasionally ban some high level spells? For example, some ban teleportations and others ban scrying, in an attempt to "save" the story from being spoiled. That sounds sometimes like a failure of the system, if you have to "ban" a group of features.

 

[S'mon]

BBEGs - well, at low level a CR 4 BBEG will often massacre a 2nd level party; the problem does seem to lessen around the mid levels (6-10) when PCs are more durable and insta-death attacks are still rare, then picks up again later. I think there's a lot to be said for keeping a 3e campaign to levels 1-10, but if you do this be sure to scale down NPC level distribution so 10th is legendary hero status.

Spell bans - yeah, Monte preaches against this in the DMG but it's always tempting. I think it's ok to shield NPCs vs the scry-buff-teleport routine (lead-lined walls, amulets vs det & loc, etc) but some nerfs just seem lazy.

 

[Mystery Man]

No more ACK!

DM batteries recharged. Was facing serious burnout, much better now.

Thanks all!

 

[Darmanicus]

BBEGs of CR 2+ over party level will often shred the PCs, yup.

I'd tend to disagree with you there slightly. Our DM is having to use critters of about 5+ against our party of 15th lv av characters. This is starting to get worrying because it could easily result in a TPK now.

 

[S'mon]

Darmanicus - groups vary, of course. And a lot depends on whether the GM is 'building to kill', 'building for realism' or 'building deliberately nerfed' when designing the BBEG; or any NPC. Actually the lack of any slack in 3e is a big danger - in my last campaign the ca14th level PCs were attacking a Duergar-held dwarven city and ploughing through the regular 5th level Duergar fighters very easily, so I gave the Duergar Fighter-7 Temple Guard ST 18 CON 18, 2-h power-attacking with special ultra-heavy maces... and I gave them our campaign's house-ruled version of Quint Fighter's Reckless Attack Feat (all the PC warriors had it), +5 to hit for -5 AC. My munchkin Duergar ripped into those PCs like small hairy tornadoes of fury... *ouch*.

 

[ARandomGod]

Actually don't get me wrong, I love high levels! I love access to new and cool destructive powers. I don't love making encounters. Getting better at it each time though, specially with advice from here.

A suggestion I have is to increase the amount of negative HP a player has access to. Then you don't typically have to worry about stronger opponents. I'm considering extending the negative HP range from -10 to constitution score + level... and the disabled range from 0 to 0 though - (1/2 character level).