Acquisitions Inc. switching to Daggerheart

[Snarf Zagyg]

My takeaway from this is that ...

I have a slightly different takeaway from this thread. I feel like a lot of it is two ships passing in the night.

The OP is about streamers switching to using Daggerheart. That's interesting news! A number of interesting topics related to the business side of Daggerheart and streaming live TTRPG sessions would seem to follow from that. Right?

...not so much? There are several Daggerheart threads that are active, and that have been active, on EnWorld. There's a very active (+) thread for general Daggerheart discussion (awesome!) and I see DH threads pop up here and there - right now, there is another thread about what people are planning to do with Daggerheart started by @Reynard

I think it might be nice if Daggerheart got its own Tag - right? Seems like there is a lot of interest in discussing how to play it, how people are playing it, and their experiences with it. Maybe that's something one of you can ask Morrus about so it's not lumped in with TTRPG general?

With that said, it feels like actual attempts at discussing the business side of Daggerheart are being perceived as "attacks" by people that like the game. Which shouldn't be the case, at all. I think that there are a lot of interesting issues that could be discussed (and that this would have been a good thread for those discussions) that are orthogonal to whether a particular poster "likes" or "bounces off of" Daggerheart.

Here are some of the things that I think would be interesting, based purely on what I would find interesting:

1. What is "success" for Daggerheart? In other words, think ahead to the end of 2026 and set a benchmark- what do you think would qualify as "success?" Being #1 in the market? #2? #6? How successful in the mass market does it need to be to be successful?

2. Do you think that the success/failure of Daggerheart would have any larger meaning? I am genuinely curious about this. For example, we know about the rise of people watching streaming TTRPGs. And we know (from Hasbro surveys) that the majority of D&D players are young- many of them first played D&D with 5e. In other words, would it be possible to draw any conclusions about how the "TTRPG market" has changed from any success or failure of Daggerheart?

3. Related to (2), how important are streaming TTRPGs to the TTRPG market? Will we learn anything about this. To date, it's been most anecdotal- we know streaming TTRPGs can be profitable (especially for Critical Role!) but what is the actual interplay between them and the underlying TTRPG market? If DH becomes successful, do we expect that Hasbro will start making deals ($$) with well-known streamers?

4. Finally, and this gets to the design standpoint- what are the key similarities and differences between Daggerheart and 5.5e? Do those similarities and differences matter to consumers? If DH becomes increasingly popular, do we expect Hasbro to release a 6e that incorporates some or all of the design features of DH while leveraging the lore of D&D, or do we expect D&D to differentiate?

By the way- I genuinely have no clue as to the answers, but I think these are interesting questions.

 

[kermit4karate]

Not trying to change your mind, but I think this video offers a different and more useful perspective than an "actual play".

Thank you! A constructive, respectful comment after an initial difference of opinion was revealed?? Wasn't sure I'd live to see the day.

 

[kermit4karate]

I have a slightly different takeaway from this thread. I feel like a lot of it is two ships passing in the night.

The OP is about streamers switching to using Daggerheart. That's interesting news! A number of interesting topics related to the business side of Daggerheart and streaming live TTRPG sessions would seem to follow from that. Right?

...not so much? There are several Daggerheart threads that are active, and that have been active, on EnWorld. There's a very active (+) thread for general Daggerheart discussion (awesome!) and I see DH threads pop up here and there - right now, there is another thread about what people are planning to do with Daggerheart started by @Reynard

I think it might be nice if Daggerheart got its own Tag - right? Seems like there is a lot of interest in discussing how to play it, how people are playing it, and their experiences with it. Maybe that's something one of you can ask Morrus about so it's not lumped in with TTRPG general?

With that said, it feels like actual attempts at discussing the business side of Daggerheart are being perceived as "attacks" by people that like the game. Which shouldn't be the case, at all. I think that there are a lot of interesting issues that could be discussed (and that this would have been a good thread for those discussions) that are orthogonal to whether a particular poster "likes" or "bounces off of" Daggerheart.

Here are some of the things that I think would be interesting, based purely on what I would find interesting:

1. What is "success" for Daggerheart? In other words, think ahead to the end of 2026 and set a benchmark- what do you think would qualify as "success?" Being #1 in the market? #2? #6? How successful in the mass market does it need to be to be successful?

2. Do you think that the success/failure of Daggerheart would have any larger meaning? I am genuinely curious about this. For example, we know about the rise of people watching streaming TTRPGs. And we know (from Hasbro surveys) that the majority of D&D players are young- many of them first played D&D with 5e. In other words, would it be possible to draw any conclusions about how the "TTRPG market" has changed from any success or failure of Daggerheart?

3. Related to (2), how important are streaming TTRPGs to the TTRPG market? Will we learn anything about this. To date, it's been most anecdotal- we know streaming TTRPGs can be profitable (especially for Critical Role!) but what is the actual interplay between them and the underlying TTRPG market? If DH becomes successful, do we expect that Hasbro will start making deals ($$) with well-known streamers?

4. Finally, and this gets to the design standpoint- what are the key similarities and differences between Daggerheart and 5.5e? Do those similarities and differences matter to consumers? If DH becomes increasingly popular, do we expect Hasbro to release a 6e that incorporates some or all of the design features of DH while leveraging the lore of D&D, or do we expect D&D to differentiate?

By the way- I genuinely have no clue as to the answers, but I think these are interesting questions.

Your comments are always such a breath of fresh air. Thank you!

 

[Reynard]

I have a slightly different takeaway from this thread. I feel like a lot of it is two ships passing in the night.

The OP is about streamers switching to using Daggerheart. That's interesting news! A number of interesting topics related to the business side of Daggerheart and streaming live TTRPG sessions would seem to follow from that. Right?

...not so much? There are several Daggerheart threads that are active, and that have been active, on EnWorld. There's a very active (+) thread for general Daggerheart discussion (awesome!) and I see DH threads pop up here and there - right now, there is another thread about what people are planning to do with Daggerheart started by @Reynard

I think it might be nice if Daggerheart got its own Tag - right? Seems like there is a lot of interest in discussing how to play it, how people are playing it, and their experiences with it. Maybe that's something one of you can ask Morrus about so it's not lumped in with TTRPG general?

With that said, it feels like actual attempts at discussing the business side of Daggerheart are being perceived as "attacks" by people that like the game. Which shouldn't be the case, at all. I think that there are a lot of interesting issues that could be discussed (and that this would have been a good thread for those discussions) that are orthogonal to whether a particular poster "likes" or "bounces off of" Daggerheart.

Here are some of the things that I think would be interesting, based purely on what I would find interesting:

1. What is "success" for Daggerheart? In other words, think ahead to the end of 2026 and set a benchmark- what do you think would qualify as "success?" Being #1 in the market? #2? #6? How successful in the mass market does it need to be to be successful?

2. Do you think that the success/failure of Daggerheart would have any larger meaning? I am genuinely curious about this. For example, we know about the rise of people watching streaming TTRPGs. And we know (from Hasbro surveys) that the majority of D&D players are young- many of them first played D&D with 5e. In other words, would it be possible to draw any conclusions about how the "TTRPG market" has changed from any success or failure of Daggerheart?

3. Related to (2), how important are streaming TTRPGs to the TTRPG market? Will we learn anything about this. To date, it's been most anecdotal- we know streaming TTRPGs can be profitable (especially for Critical Role!) but what is the actual interplay between them and the underlying TTRPG market? If DH becomes successful, do we expect that Hasbro will start making deals ($$) with well-known streamers?

4. Finally, and this gets to the design standpoint- what are the key similarities and differences between Daggerheart and 5.5e? Do those similarities and differences matter to consumers? If DH becomes increasingly popular, do we expect Hasbro to release a 6e that incorporates some or all of the design features of DH while leveraging the lore of D&D, or do we expect D&D to differentiate?

By the way- I genuinely have no clue as to the answers, but I think these are interesting questions.

One of the problems with discussing the "business side of Daggerheart" is that we unfortunately don't have a lot of information. They sold out some print runs, but we don't know how big those print runs were. they have some brick and mortar penetration, but how many? Where? What scale? And unlike Avatar or Draw Steel or Shadowdark, Darrington did not run a crowd funding campaign, so we can't even compare that potential customer base to those other games.

I also think that unless someone from Kobold or Paizo wants to come give us some numbers, we don't actually know what "success" looks like for any company that does not give investor reports. And since Darrington and Daggerheart are only some unknown portion of the Crtical Role company, we don't even know if DH has to be profitable to be successful. What is the ROI of DH versus and episode of the streaming show? Who knows?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

One of the problems with discussing the "business side of Daggerheart" is that we unfortunately don't have a lot of information. They sold out some print runs, but we don't know how big those print runs were. they have some brick and mortar penetration, but how many? Where? What scale? And unlike Avatar or Draw Steel or Shadowdark, Darrington did not run a crowd funding campaign, so we can't even compare that potential customer base to those other games.

I also think that unless someone from Kobold or Paizo wants to come give us some numbers, we don't actually know what "success" looks like for any company that does not give investor reports. And since Darrington and Daggerheart are only some unknown portion of the Crtical Role company, we don't even know if DH has to be profitable to be successful. What is the ROI of DH versus and episode of the streaming show? Who knows?

I think that this is true of a lot of TTRPGs! And yet, we still manage to discuss it. Usually to argue that whatever data we get (like from the various measurements of what is selling in stores, or what is being played online) is wrong.

But that's why I talk about it in terms of the future. Obviously, we can't discuss how it's doing now. But I think we will have a better (albeit incomplete) idea in the future.

And I am genuinely curious as to what "success" for Daggerheart really means! I admit that I don't get it. I am "out of touch" with the youth of today, and I don't fully grok what the expectations are. Do people think it will supplant D&D? Are they thinking that it will be a popular product, but along the lines of PF2e? Or ... Call of Cthulhu?

Is that setting the bar too high? I genuinely don't know. By the way, this has nothing to do with the merits of the game at all- most of the games I love were never big sellers.

I am having trouble understanding what the expectations and market for the game are- not in a bad way, but just because I can't understand how the genuine enthusiasm I see for it in some places (and the difficulty with print runs) is translating into the wider community, and whether that means it's a mass-market play, or if it's supposed to be big, but just ... big for a non-Hasbro publisher way.*

Know what I mean?

I mean- look at this thread. It announced that a streamer that is fairly well-known (and had a Hasbro book in the past for D&D) is moving to DH. I assume that's big news? What does that say, if anything, about the ambitions for the product?


*And by extension, if it's supposed to be "big big," what does it tell us if it accomplishes that? Or doesn't?

 

[kermit4karate]

One of the problems with discussing the "business side of Daggerheart" is that we unfortunately don't have a lot of information. They sold out some print runs, but we don't know how big those print runs were. they have some brick and mortar penetration, but how many? Where? What scale? And unlike Avatar or Draw Steel or Shadowdark, Darrington did not run a crowd funding campaign, so we can't even compare that potential customer base to those other games.

I also think that unless someone from Kobold or Paizo wants to come give us some numbers, we don't actually know what "success" looks like for any company that does not give investor reports. And since Darrington and Daggerheart are only some unknown portion of the Crtical Role company, we don't even know if DH has to be profitable to be successful. What is the ROI of DH versus and episode of the streaming show? Who knows?

Agreed across the board. It is a little curious why they haven't been able to keep the physical product in stock. I have a tough time believing it's only production constraints. Seems like they could have completed another run in this time, so I suspect there's a little something else to it. Capital, cash flow, revisions (possible, right?) or something else.

 

[mamba]

HasBro execs pretty openly state they think the D&D game line to be severely underperforming...

is that the ‘undermonetized’ thing? If so, that is not at all what it means. If not, what are you referring to?

 

[Agamon]

Agreed across the board. It is a little curious why they haven't been able to keep the physical product in stock. I have a tough time believing it's only production constraints. Seems like they could have completed another run in this time, so I suspect there's a little something else to it. Capital, cash flow, revisions (possible, right?) or something else.

It has been restocked, once in the US and once recently in EU. I can only go by anecdotal stories from the two game store owners I know. One said he got more stock on it than he does with most of the non-dnd/pf rpgs and it sold out pretty quickly. The other one got a couple copies, not thinking it would sell any more than anything else. Both wish they'd ordered more.

I'm not invested in how much the game sells, but it feels like an Occum's razor situation to me.

 

[Vael]

I think that this is true of a lot of TTRPGs! And yet, we still manage to discuss it. Usually to argue that whatever data we get (like from the various measurements of what is selling in stores, or what is being played online) is wrong.

But that's why I talk about it in terms of the future. Obviously, we can't discuss how it's doing now. But I think we will have a better (albeit incomplete) idea in the future.

And I am genuinely curious as to what "success" for Daggerheart really means! I admit that I don't get it. I am "out of touch" with the youth of today, and I don't fully grok what the expectations are. Do people think it will supplant D&D? Are they thinking that it will be a popular product, but along the lines of PF2e? Or ... Call of Cthulhu?

Is that setting the bar too high? I genuinely don't know. By the way, this has nothing to do with the merits of the game at all- most of the games I love were never big sellers.

I am having trouble understanding what the expectations and market for the game are- not in a bad way, but just because I can't understand how the genuine enthusiasm I see for it in some places (and the difficulty with print runs) is translating into the wider community, and whether that means it's a mass-market play, or if it's supposed to be big, but just ... big for a non-Hasbro publisher way.*

I think there's a lot wanting to take down the elephant in the room. I remember Paizo fans crowing over outselling DnD that one time. I've seen a lot of click bait over Daggerheart vs DnD, and one couldn't step into the Daggerheart subreddit after the announcement that Campaign 4 was gong to use the 2024 DnD rules with all the sturm und drang, calling it "a betrayal" and "Daggerheart is dead".

So, I dunno, I just put on Lorde's version of "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" and run my campaign, lol.

My main criteria for Daggerheart are can I play it (ie, find a group) and is there continuing support (more stuff to buy). It's a very hackable and brewable system, but that doesn't mean I don't want more official material released.

 

[Agamon]

I think there's a lot wanting to take down the elephant in the room. I remember Paizo fans crowing over outselling DnD that one time. I've seen a lot of click bait over Daggerheart vs DnD, and one couldn't step into the Daggerheart subreddit after the announcement that Campaign 4 was gong to use the 2024 DnD rules with all the sturm und drang, calling it "a betrayal" and "Daggerheart is dead".

So, I dunno, I just put on Lorde's version of "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" and run my campaign, lol.

My main criteria for Daggerheart are can I play it (ie, find a group) and is there continuing support (more stuff to buy). It's a very hackable and brewable system, but that doesn't mean I don't want more official material released.

This is my thought when I see "X RPG is dead!" Did someone come to your house and light your books on fire? lol