Action Point usage

[Chris Knapp]

This past weekend at my LFR table, On my turn, I declared that I was using my action point first thing. My intention was to gain the advantages that my Paragon Path granted for both this free action, the remaining actions this turn as well as the actions next turn. The DM said no way. You have to use your AP after you use up your other actions. Needless to say, the game came to a grinding halt as we all whipped out our books and tried to find a ruling. Half the table was for it, the other half thought it was too much. I came home that evening and tried to find something definitive, but nothing. It seems that since it is simply a free action to use my AP, that I can use it whenever I want. How does everyone else play it?

 

[Piratecat]

I let my players use their action points whenever they want. There's no mechanical reason not to, there's no "it's more fun the other way" reason not to, and as far as I know the rules support it.

 

[moxcamel]

Excerpted from the Compendium:

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION

During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action.

I read "During your turn" to be exactly that. There's nothing that dictates *when* during your turn to spend it, you just need to spend it some time during your turn.

Of course, the DM is free to make/change rules, but I'd say going forward this ruling needs to be fully clarified. But the RAW don't put any limitations on when you can spend your point, other than it has to be during your turn.

 

[Larrin]

The rules say you can only spend it on your turn, but make no other mention of ANY limitations (ie beginning, end, after you've used all your actions). As such, you can spend it any time, and gain any benefits for the whole turn if they last that long.

When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.

Means if your first action is spending the action point to take an extra action, you get the +4 for the action point attack, and +4 for your standard action attack you could have made anyway. Perfectly legal, and no indication this is not intended either.

 

[RangerWickett]

Hm. I'd like a time-based paragon path that lets you spend an action point to get a standard action as an immediate interrupt on someone else's turn.

 

[Nullzone]

Like others here, I'm going to say that your DM is crazy. Action Points are a free action, and if your PP gives you a boon until your next turn, then that boon applies to everything you do once you've used the point. There's no law on when or what you can use an AP on in RAW.

Also, because DM fiat is being mentioned: This is LFR, so while fiat is allowed for nonspecific issues, if the rules state something then the DM is supposed to adhere to it. Don't make a big deal out of it, but you may want to note it to the DM if you play with him a lot. He may simply not know and be assuming the AP is reserved for "after turn" actions since that's usually how people use them (especially in Heroic where there's no specific benefit for doing so).

 

[BobTheNob]

I read "During your turn" to be exactly that. There's nothing that dictates *when* during your turn to spend it, you just need to spend it some time during your turn.

Of course, the DM is free to make/change rules, but I'd say going forward this ruling needs to be fully clarified. But the RAW don't put any limitations on when you can spend your point, other than it has to be during your turn.

Exactly right. There isnt anything that dictates when in your turn it must be used. In fact, alot of the "paragon riders" are designed in such a way that they are most advantageous when used at the start of your turn, rather than the end. It really is (in such cases) design inention that action points are used at the start

Im curious where your DM got the idea that they must be spent at the end of the turn. I havent seen any rule saying that, and I in fact think its just a plumb wrong assessment of how AP's should be used.

 

[Storminator]

What happens if Action Points aren't limited to being played on your turn? Is it outrageous to let people get an out of turn action?

PS

 

[Nullzone]

It causes headaches with turn progression and has the danger of "spotlight stealing" so yes, I'd say it's problematic. Action Points in and of themselves are a nuisance in my opinion though, so I may be biased

 

[GameDoc]

What happens if Action Points aren't limited to being played on your turn? Is it outrageous to let people get an out of turn action?

PS

Given that in at least half the encounters multiple players will have an action point, you would effectively give them all one immediate reaction with the trigger being "becaue I want one."

That doesn't mean it's abosuletly a bad idea. I think it depends on the size and dynamics of the group. I play in two groups.

The first one is small. There are 5 of us, so 1 DM and 4 players. We have been together a while now so we all know the mechanics, execute our turns quickly, and play tactically off of one another's moves. I think one of us could declare they are spending an acion point out of turn and take the action in under 30 seconds without it disrupting the flow. That kind of group could probably get away with it.

The other groop is larger - 1 DM (me) and 9-11 players depending on who shows up. Most are still relatively new to 4e and take a while on their turns. With them, I can envision it devolving into a free-for-all and rendering the concept of initiative useless. Even with a more seasoned group this size, I think it would add to grind.