AD&D: There and Back Again - a Role-Player's Tale

[IronWolf]

3rd Edition (an example of a character at any level):

Opening a Door: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Bend Bars: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Picking a Pocket**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Open Lock**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Find/Remove Trap**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Move Silently**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Hide in Shadows**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Hear Noise**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Climb Walls**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Read Languages: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Surprises enemy: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
...
ANY CHALLENGE: D20 vs free-wheeled DC

** Any class under the sun can attempt these.

Why did you ignore the tables under many of these skills that tell you what the DC should be for various tasks? Picking one from your list - Open Lock which you call free-wheeled:

DC20 Very Simple Lock
DC25 Average Lock
DC30 Good Lock
DC40 Amazing Lock

Other skills have these tables as well. The DM of course gets to choose what type of lock it is - but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

 

[lumin]

What you are missing is the fundamental idea behind earlier editions which was this:

The rules as written are a skeletal framework upon which an individual DM builds his/her game.

Can you provide the page number of that quote in the PHB or DMG? I can't seem to find it. That may be the case for 3.5, but it wasn't in the 1st Edition rulebooks.

 

[Fifth Element]

* These skills can never be attempted by any other class that is not a Thief or Assassin. Again, there is NO place in the PHB or DMG that describes how another class can attempt Thief skills if he is not a Thief or Assassin. Anyone that says otherwise is making it up.

Other than the parts that anything not covered explicitly in the rules is left up to the DM. Other than that, sure.

Picking a Pocket**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC

Free-wheeled DC? Have you read the 3E skill descriptions? Picking someone's pocket specifically requires a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to take the thing, and the target is allowed a Spot check (opposed by your Sleight of Hand check) to detect it. Those DCs are given to the DM by the rules. Where is the DM free-wheeling these DCs?

Read the skill descriptions. Those that aren't based on opposed checks have lists of DCs for various tasks. The Climb skill description lists seven DCs depending on the surface being climbed, and three possible circumstance modifiers. Handle Animal lists twenty-two DCs, based on what you're trying to train the animal to do. There are a few that have some real judgment involved (Gather Information, e.g.), but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

So we have another point of contention: your apparent claim that 3E DMs pick the DCs out of thin air, which is also flatly untrue.

 

[lumin]

Why did you ignore the tables under many of these skills that tell you what the DC should be for various tasks? Picking one from your list - Open Lock which you call free-wheeled:

DC20 Very Simple Lock
DC25 Average Lock
DC30 Good Lock
DC40 Amazing Lock

Other skills have these tables as well. The DM of course gets to choose what type of lock it is - but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Again, those are SOFT, suggestion tables for DC. They are in no way HARD DC numbers as the ones in 1E.

And those are very arbitrary suggestions, at that. ANY door in AD&D 1e was ALWAYS a 1d6 vs 2 (if that was your strength roll). These are far more free-form and grants a ton of leeway to the DM for how he defines "Simple, Average, Good, Amazing, etc".

 

[lumin]

Free-wheeled DC? Have you read the 3E skill descriptions? Picking someone's pocket specifically requires a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to take the thing, and the target is allowed a Spot check (opposed by your Sleight of Hand check) to detect it. Those DCs are given to the DM by the rules. Where is the DM free-wheeling these DCs?

Those are soft DC suggestions in the rulebook. They were designed to give you an idea of the DC that the DM should use. They are in no way HARD numbers that HAVE to be met to succeed.

Also, the sleight of hand must be checked against he opposing Spot Check and the DC for Spot was also based off of a soft table (suggestions, not hard numbers).

Edit: Also, notice the wording on the table: "DC: 20 to Lift a small object from a person". What about a large object? What about a monster? It's up to the DM to free-wheel this. AD&D, it was always a SET IN STONE d100 vs 30 percentage DC (at level 1).

 

[Fifth Element]

Can you provide the page number of that quote in the PHB or DMG? I can't seem to find it. That may be the case for 3.5, but it wasn't in the 1st Edition rulebooks.

Pawsplay already did so in this thread, right here. Pay particular attention to the last one.

 

[Fifth Element]

Those are soft DC suggestions in the rulebook. They were designed to give you an idea of the DC that the DM should use. They are in no way HARD numbers that HAVE to be met to succeed.

Okay, yes, if you ignore the rules than I guess the rules won't seem to provide the hard numbers you think the rules lack.

What part of "If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it" says "soft DC" to you? It gives you a number that must be met, like the AD&D thieves skills.

 

[lumin]

Pawsplay already did so in this thread, right here. Pay particular attention to the last one.

Ummm, I do not see this phrase ANYWHERE:
The rules as written are a skeletal framework upon which an individual DM builds his/her game.

I already rebutted this. Look at the wording: "There will be times in which the rules do not cover a specific action that a player will attempt.".

The rules COVER all of the checks I just listed above with HARD numbers, therefore there is no need to make any up because they have been covered.

 

[lumin]

Okay, yes, if you ignore the rules than I guess the rules won't seem to provide the hard numbers you think the rules lack.

What part of "If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it" says "soft DC" to you? It gives you a number that must be met, like the AD&D thieves skills.

Notice my Edit above:

Edit: Also, notice the wording on the table: "DC: 20 to Lift a small object from a person". What about a large object? What about a monster? It's up to the DM to free-wheel this. AD&D, it was always a SET IN STONE d100 vs 30 percentage DC (at level 1).

I don't blame people for believing 1E was a free-wheeled game. It's difficult to throw out years of believing that because a lot of DMs played the game that way.

I am looking at this from a completely fresh perspective because I have only played 3rd Edition D&D prior to this. I am seeing it without the cloud of years of nostalgia or years of "ingrained" bias about what the rules were. I am making an objective assessment about the rules stated on the pages in the book.

And what I see is a game that is much more strict in its encounter resolution than 3rd Edition. I'm not referring to what WoTC said, I'm not referencing what the "spirit" of the game purportedly was by the fans, I'm simply looking at what's printed.

 

[Fifth Element]

The rules COVER all of the checks I just listed above with HARD numbers, therefore there is no need to make any up because they have been covered.

Earlier, you claimed that AD&D has a table to cover every imaginable situation. Have you backed away from that position? You've listed only a small number of possible PC actions that have hard numbers attached to them. Is that all you have?