Adamant Entertainment PDF Products
- Thread starter Threedub
- Start date
HellHound
ENnies winner and NOT Scrappy Doo
GMSkarka said:
No offense, Gareth, but if opening the document in Quark or InDesign, going to the master page, and deleting the background element before re-saving the product in PDF format doubles your workload, then you aren't putting a lot of work into these products.
DonAdam
Explorer
I too am among those who would like to see print-friendly versions. However, to be fair to Gareth, all the suggestions about just deleting the border don't encompass what he's talking about. He's talking about losing the graphics entirely, which totally changes the layout of the book and thus would be more work.
DonAdam said:
Precisely. Look at the first poster's request. He's not just talking about the borders.
Hell, if it was just a matter of the borders, fine! Who cares?
In his response to me, the original poster specifically said: "I do understand that with products like Netspace where the graphics are photos, there really isn't an alternative." He's specifically talking about the art in the product itself, not just the borders.
While I'm posting, I also invite everyone to check the link to the review thread that TheAuldGrump provided in his post above. Read what I actually wrote, and decide for yourself if it was dismissive or makes me Evil Bad Nasty Publisher #470.
My response in that thread was not intended to be dismissive, but rather offer a solution for folks who don't want to have to print the product. I think if you actually read what I wrote, you'll see that this appears to be a situation where somebody has taken what I said in the absolute worst light possible -- and, given the way he's hammering away at the point on this thread, it appears to have grown into a full-blown agenda, which is ridiculous. It was not my intention to insult or demean anyone, but now it appears to have become a personal matter, which means that no matter what I do, I'm on the losing end of this particular argument.
A few more things that I'm not going to let pass without comment:
Only if you're reading it with the worst possible interpretation, which you appear bent on doing. What I said in the quote you provided is that given the fact that work-arounds are obvious and easy for the small number of people for whom it is a problem, I've never worried about it. That is not even remotely saying "I don't have a problem, so you don't have a problem." Please stop saying that it is.
Again, no. You're still trying to frame the argument by putting words in my mouth. What I said was that the color borders are no more than a 20% shade, and most of which is also "whited out" by the print gutter on most household printers. I did not say that the borders "did not print on most home printers", by any stretch of the imagination...only that a good chunk of the border (since it is a bleed) will be guttered.
Fair enough. I've seen more posts on this thread from people reasonably requesting more print-friendly versions than I've had emailed to me in 2 years.
But tell me this: Given the fact that the product which you're talking about in particular is our top-seller, even with these borders which are supposedly a crime against all right-thinking gamers, what am I supposed to think? On the one hand, I've got a product that is breaking sales records AS IS. On the other hand, I've had a handful of people tell me that they've had a problem with a minor point of aesthetics. I'm sorry if you think that a business should cater to everyone's wishes, but that's just not the case.
...and Internet Crusades have always been tiresome.
Look: I apologize if I somehow personally insulted you in my response to your review. If it was that big an offense, you could have contacted me and I would have tried to make amends. Now, though, it just seems (to me, at least), like you've got an axe to grind, and are going out of your way to live up to your username.
TheAuldGrump said:
Only if you're reading it with the worst possible interpretation, which you appear bent on doing. What I said in the quote you provided is that given the fact that work-arounds are obvious and easy for the small number of people for whom it is a problem, I've never worried about it. That is not even remotely saying "I don't have a problem, so you don't have a problem." Please stop saying that it is.
TheAuldGrump said:
Again, no. You're still trying to frame the argument by putting words in my mouth. What I said was that the color borders are no more than a 20% shade, and most of which is also "whited out" by the print gutter on most household printers. I did not say that the borders "did not print on most home printers", by any stretch of the imagination...only that a good chunk of the border (since it is a bleed) will be guttered.
TheAuldGrump said:
Fair enough. I've seen more posts on this thread from people reasonably requesting more print-friendly versions than I've had emailed to me in 2 years.
But tell me this: Given the fact that the product which you're talking about in particular is our top-seller, even with these borders which are supposedly a crime against all right-thinking gamers, what am I supposed to think? On the one hand, I've got a product that is breaking sales records AS IS. On the other hand, I've had a handful of people tell me that they've had a problem with a minor point of aesthetics. I'm sorry if you think that a business should cater to everyone's wishes, but that's just not the case.
TheAuldGrump said:
...and Internet Crusades have always been tiresome.
Look: I apologize if I somehow personally insulted you in my response to your review. If it was that big an offense, you could have contacted me and I would have tried to make amends. Now, though, it just seems (to me, at least), like you've got an axe to grind, and are going out of your way to live up to your username.
Masada
First Post
Good customer service isn't about catering to everyone's need, but rather handlingly the delicate matters with respect and compassion.
Dear <consumer>,
Thank you for your purchase of our <product name> product! We couldn't be successful without your purchases and feedback.
We appologize for the inconveniences the standard formatting has caused. Upon researching this issue, we have few solutions. One solution would be for you to obtain the printed versions of our product. Information on this is found <here>. Optionally, we have made the conscious decision to allow "copy & paste" from our PDF documents. We felt it was important to give this feature to the customer to allow for maximium flexibility over formatting issues.
We will keep your feedback in mind as we release future products. If we determine it is financially viable to offer multiple versions of our PDF products we will let you know.
Thank you so much for your purchase! Please contact us directly at <address> if you have other comments or concerns on your purchases.
***
Other Advice:
1. Don't get involved in individual disputes in a public forum. Take all issues off line.
2. Once you state your position, don't continue to defend it.
3. Be compassionate with the customer even if they are wrong. It isn't about being right, it's about creating a positive experience from a negative one.
***
PS: I would like Bookmarks! *hehe*
Dear <consumer>,
Thank you for your purchase of our <product name> product! We couldn't be successful without your purchases and feedback.
We appologize for the inconveniences the standard formatting has caused. Upon researching this issue, we have few solutions. One solution would be for you to obtain the printed versions of our product. Information on this is found <here>. Optionally, we have made the conscious decision to allow "copy & paste" from our PDF documents. We felt it was important to give this feature to the customer to allow for maximium flexibility over formatting issues.
We will keep your feedback in mind as we release future products. If we determine it is financially viable to offer multiple versions of our PDF products we will let you know.
Thank you so much for your purchase! Please contact us directly at <address> if you have other comments or concerns on your purchases.
***
Other Advice:
1. Don't get involved in individual disputes in a public forum. Take all issues off line.
2. Once you state your position, don't continue to defend it.
3. Be compassionate with the customer even if they are wrong. It isn't about being right, it's about creating a positive experience from a negative one.
***
PS: I would like Bookmarks! *hehe*
Last edited:
Masada--
If you click the link in TheAuldGrump's post, you'll see that your suggestion is pretty much what I *did* say in his review thread -- minus the corporate-sales-speak which gamers NEVER respond positively to.
The problem is: in this particular market, the customer service lessons that most gamers know from working at retail or service positions simply do not apply. They should, I agree, but they don't. Gamers, in general, have a sense of personal entitlement and "ownership" of their hobby which makes them less likely to be placated once they decide that they've got an issue with something you've done.
For example, you're right-- I shouldn't continue to defend my position once it's been stated. However, I have seen examples in this business where unanswered charges are taken as validation of the charge by third-party observers. (The old "if he's not responding, it must be true" bit)
Just one of the many reasons why this business can be really, really frustrating.
If you click the link in TheAuldGrump's post, you'll see that your suggestion is pretty much what I *did* say in his review thread -- minus the corporate-sales-speak which gamers NEVER respond positively to.
The problem is: in this particular market, the customer service lessons that most gamers know from working at retail or service positions simply do not apply. They should, I agree, but they don't. Gamers, in general, have a sense of personal entitlement and "ownership" of their hobby which makes them less likely to be placated once they decide that they've got an issue with something you've done.
For example, you're right-- I shouldn't continue to defend my position once it's been stated. However, I have seen examples in this business where unanswered charges are taken as validation of the charge by third-party observers. (The old "if he's not responding, it must be true" bit)
Just one of the many reasons why this business can be really, really frustrating.
Masada
First Post
Right. It is frustrating. Dispite the "standard" customer service training, the above is rarely stated. You can empathize with your customer base (minus the corporate speak), stick to your business decisions and still retain your integrity. That particular customer may or may not be completely satisfied. But once you've taken your position (and nothing moves you to change it) defending it just makes you look defensive. In this case you could argue that you've managed to sour several customers where you originally only had one.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." ~Fortune Cookie
This one has saved my bacon a time or two. Most gamer/geeks are serious logic thinkers. Being *right* is the most important thing, even if it tweaks everyone else. I would say in retail, being perceived as "right" is less important than being perceived as a caring publisher.
I know the amount of energy and heart it takes to make a game product. It's obvious to me that you put energy and heart in to your business. This is the message you want your consumers to hear. You can't do this by *proving* them wrong or repeatedly saying how you're doing it right. You have your own sales numbers, you know what you're doing is right. You don't need to prove it. You only have to tell your dis-satisfied customers that you have heard them and that you will continue to take their advice and continue to produce the best products you can. This involves doing something else that gamers find it near impossible to do--be humble, admit imperfection.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." ~Fortune Cookie
This one has saved my bacon a time or two. Most gamer/geeks are serious logic thinkers. Being *right* is the most important thing, even if it tweaks everyone else. I would say in retail, being perceived as "right" is less important than being perceived as a caring publisher.
I know the amount of energy and heart it takes to make a game product. It's obvious to me that you put energy and heart in to your business. This is the message you want your consumers to hear. You can't do this by *proving* them wrong or repeatedly saying how you're doing it right. You have your own sales numbers, you know what you're doing is right. You don't need to prove it. You only have to tell your dis-satisfied customers that you have heard them and that you will continue to take their advice and continue to produce the best products you can. This involves doing something else that gamers find it near impossible to do--be humble, admit imperfection.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
GMSkarka said:
For me the colored borders are the only problem, but you have routinely dismissed the complaint. Try creating one without the colored borders as a 'print friendly' version and I will have no complaint. If you read the review that was my only complaint about the product.
You say that I took your response in the review in the worst possible light, well, I really don't see any other way to take it. That is why I linked to it, in case you did not remember how you replied. If other people can read it and come to a different conclusion then they may do so. I don't think that I made any complaints about the illos. except for one or two being static, being stock art that was unavoidable.
Do I have an agenda? Yes - I don't want my color cartridge running out of ink, and my HP does not allow me to turn off color printing. That's all, and it certainly is not a hidden agenda. I have to physically pull out the color cartridge to prevent color printing on my HP. Even so I still get a grey scale border. The reply that the border would be 'whited out' confused me a great deal because it does not happen, and I have tried on several printers.
Gamers may react poorly to 'corporate-sales-speak' but they also want to know that the publishers are listening. But I react poorly to statements that do not jibe with my experience. I do not know what you use for layout, but I have used InDesign (wonderful, wonderful InDesign) and know how easy it is to remove the border art, which is all that I was asking about. Not a complete retooling of the manuscript, not new margin sizes, not removing all the illos., not retypsetting the entire document, just a no graphic border. Had you said 'I will take a look at the problem' I would have said 'thank you'. And it would have ended there. As it is I have had more problem with your responses than with the complaint itself, which could have been handled easily.
I have stated repeatedly through this thread that I like the products, that I think that Adamant does good work. It is a single complaint about the border art that is the beginning of this whole diatribe. It could have ended there. It can be egually frustrating to have your complaints dismissed with a 'buy the print version' as to hear petty complaints from the people who put food on your table.
The Auld Grump
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