Adapt or Perish!

[Hussar]

If you start giving monsters more than average hp's, do you also tweak their xp value? After all, their CR is based on average hp's.

 

[hong]

Why would you give an undead you plan to use as a heavy fighter type... 6.5 hp per HD. They have a d12 for HD...You're using the average, but IMHO an undead fighter type would have above average to maximum hp's per level. Is it because you feel constrained to do this, because I don't remember any rules stating all creatures must have avg hp's.

Please stop finagling.

 

[hong]

Wasn't there a "monster cheating" feat in a book that allowed Undeads to add their Charisma Bonus to HD?

Or in other ways, a quick fix that could have fatal consequences if applied to any other Undead than the one it was used for?

Yeah, Unholy Toughness: not a feat, but an Ex SQ. Can't remember which book it first appeared in. I thought it was Libris Mortis, but can't find it in there.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, Unholy Toughness: not a feat, but an Ex SQ. Can't remember which book it first appeared in. I thought it was Libris Mortis, but can't find it in there.

ISTR MM3.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Doc_Klueless]

I don't buy this nonsense that anything they're changing will attract more people to the game. Nobody is going to buy the 4e book because there are Eladrins, points of light, or a new background for demons and devils.

I think you're right. Those things by themselves won't do it. However, those things along with other tidbits of info have gotten me and a couple of friends willing to give D&D a try. Those three changes were at the top of my list of things I really like.

 

[Imaro]

If you start giving monsters more than average hp's, do you also tweak their xp value? After all, their CR is based on average hp's.

Probably, but I don't think the game will spin out of control and crash if I don't. CR is an estimate anyway not an exact science. When I play D&D I'm not too anal about the all mighty balance...but then again that's my style and I understand some people want everything in exact numbers. I don't think 4e will be doing that either though, with the comments that were made about designing a monster being an art instead of a science.

I get the impression that guesstimation will be an even bigger factor with generic roles that fit every monster and allow for xp calculation. I'm already wondering what combos of race + role will lead to unforseen combinations of abilities that make a particular monster more or less powerful than it should be. I also see this happening much more with the monsters in 4e since each one is basically an individual creation instead of in 3.5 where there was a baseline of type to draw from.

Please stop finagling.

Lol...touche hong, touche. All I'm really trying to say is it's not that hard to do. I think one of the things that are prevalent in the 3.5 mindset is the "I must follow the rules mentality". I was like that at first, and found the game to be less enjoyable for me than earlier editions. Once I decided to lay the smack down on the rules and make them mine...I enjoyed 3.5 much more. Too bad it took me so long to reach this point though since 4.0 is coming and I feel as if I'm just getting to the point where I can truly enjoy 3.5.

 

[Twowolves]

Wasn't there a "monster cheating" feat in a book that allowed Undeads to add their Charisma Bonus to HD?

Or Improved Toughness.

Or use some bonus fighter feats (since we are adding Fighter levels to the base critter) to fill in some combat crunch.

I believe the reason why undead were given crappy BAB in the first place was because A0 corporeal undead are supposed to be slow and jerky and B) incorporeal undead almost all have touch attacks anyway. And for the REAL combat machine undead, they are templates anyway, which won't affect fighter levels and high BAB anyway.

It also helps to have a much wider range of templates available than what's in core. Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary has templates that can duplicate most undead in the SRD that aren't templates anyway, and some that are (Dread Skeletons and Dread Zombies spring to mind).

Like I said, I understand Scribble's point, but there isn't enough information out there about the nuts and bolts of 4th ed monsters for me to pass final judgement. But from what I've seen so far, meh.

 

[hong]

Lol...touche hong, touche. All I'm really trying to say is it's not that hard to do. I think one of the things that are prevalent in the 3.5 mindset is the "I must follow the rules mentality". I was like that at first, and found the game to be less enjoyable for me than earlier editions. Once I decided to lay the smack down on the rules and make them mine...I enjoyed 3.5 much more.

Exactly. This thing about paying for rules which you fully admit are too complicated to actually use, it is irrational. Maybe it's a faith thing.

 

[Scribble]

Lol...touche hong, touche. All I'm really trying to say is it's not that hard to do. I think one of the things that are prevalent in the 3.5 mindset is the "I must follow the rules mentality". I was like that at first, and found the game to be less enjoyable for me than earlier editions. Once I decided to lay the smack down on the rules and make them mine...I enjoyed 3.5 much more. Too bad it took me so long to reach this point though since 4.0 is coming and I feel as if I'm just getting to the point where I can truly enjoy 3.5.

That's it though... I never said that 3e was an unusable system. It worked. I liked it. I just think there are parts of it that could have been and hopefully will be done better.

The whole IDEA of a template to me a finagling. Templates should be used for things that are slightly outside of the norm. Unique creatures like adding an "ice" descriptor, or something like that. It should not break down into THE thing you NEED to use in order to make the rules work the way you need them too.

The rules should work so that you don't have to decide that you need to change them to make them fun...

Ultimately it's a change I think that will help designers most of all, but will also help DMs. DMs still design, just sometimes it's unconsciously.

also, your "hardcore" undead fighter has a +0 BAB? That doesn't seem hard core to me. These are the types of situations that having a class/monster create.

 

[JDJblatherings]

So ... you're saying that a generation with one set of culturally shared memories of fantasy literature has to adapt to modern fantasy norms with which they aren't familiar and that don't have the same impact? Unless I misread your post, that's pure nonsense, Merric. We don't game with people who aren't at our gaming tables, the forty year olds with established groups aren't inviting middle schoolers into their games.

Yes, some of us are in fact inviting middle schoolers to the table. 1/2 my group is 38+, the other half is sons and other gamers kids aged 11-12. We've been playing BFRPG however and one middle schooler couldn't hack it and doesn't play with us anymore.
He couldn't adapt to the samll simple and streamlined pool (to use evoltionary themes), that still let's us play TOEE and romp about the city State of the Invicible overlord.