Adaptation of elves. Lvl adjustment needed

[Fealak]

Sorry if I upset Baronovan... I dont want that
I only say want I think, I really know they need to be something like this, but I only said they don´t need a lot of thing that they have and we can down his level adjustment. I don´t like transmutation or similar things in my Middle Earth campaign, because in Middle Earth there are a lot of things like this that doesn´t exist: Mummry rot... I´m not sure, but if in the Middle Earth doesn´t exists this things we can drop from elves and make them lower level adjustment. Its only my opinion. Besides, I´m trying to adapt my campaign with a magic limit to my players. I´m trying to adapt Middle Earth with its flavour as much as I can and make my players happy. I find this very difficult, and I know that your ideas are the best (but unplayable... Perhaps if i can fit more to a lower lvl...) I hope we can understand me and sorry again if I upset you I dont want that, only try to talk and make a good work Thats why I thank you very much for sharing your wisdom

 

[Baronovan]

You misread me, my friend. I'm so far from upset it's not funny.

I just have a particular slant on ME that (clearly) we don't agree on. No beef. I'm glad you like the material, though.

Insofar as the LA, I understand what you're saying regarding "dropping unnecessary immunities" et al, but I wanted to leave as much of the Core Rules open to ME play as possible, and that meant including such immunities.

As far as adapting magic in ME, try this: use the spell points from UnA; eliminate Evocation, Transmutation, and Necromancy spells from PC spell lists while strongly limiting them for NPCs. While I don't think a PC Noldo sorcerer should have fireball, I don't think they couldn't, and I strongly feel that high-end NPCs (like Gothmog, Sauron, et al) should have access to this sort of magic since it would make them so fearsome by contrast.

Good luck, pal.

 

[Afrodyte]

Fealak:

I would heartily recommend getting ahold of Volume 10 of the History of Middle-earth series, as well as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. It puts a lot of the information you need to determine racial traits into a more digestible form, thus making it easier to judge which abilities make sense for which races.

Your write-ups look pretty neat, except for a few things.

First thing's first: I would give the Noldor a bonus to Intelligence before I'd give them one to Strength. Though they can make powerful and valiant warriors, they have an even greater affinity for craftsmanship and lore. In addition, they have an unparalleled love and gift for languages. This suggests that they have, on average, a higher Intelligence score than other Elves. It's not just greater knowledge and experience. Tolkien implies that they simply have more powerful gray matter than everybody else.

Second, I wouldn't limit the Craft bonus to blacksmithing. Their primary talent lies with gem-cutting. In addition, amongst other things, they have also been adept with copper, silver, and fabric. This suggests their knack for craftsmanship is more generalized. Perhaps a racial bonus to any one Craft skill would suffice.

Second: The Sindar and the Silvan Elves are two different peoples. They just tend to live together a bit more often, especially in Mirkwood and Lothlorien (at least, in LotR; they were everywhere in the Silmarillion). They both descend from the Teleri, but they split up early in their history and developed into different cultures. Before the return of the Noldor, the Sindar were the most powerful Elves in Middle-earth, and it is they who were more or less the rulers. The Silvan Elves were pretty much content to live close to nature and do their thing. All Teleri were good singers (bonus to Perform (Sing) checks, perhaps), and the Sindar in particular had a talent for making and sailing ships. The Silvan Elves, though, had the greatest knowledge of and affinity for living things (bonus to Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Ride, and/or Survival? Or even Wild Empathy as a racial trait?).

I would nix the Charisma bonus for Silvan Elves since, though easy on the eyes, they don't have particularly forceful personalities as a rule.

The Charisma bonuses for Sindar and Noldor, however, are right on. The Dexterity bonus for elves is good too. The Wisdom bonus is a good addition too. I know where Inner Light comes from, but I think a better way of doing it would be to give Noldor the paladin's Divine Grace ability (applicable only to Fortitude and Will saves) as a racial trait. This might bump up the LA, but for the Noldor it makes a lot of sense.

Strangely enough, though, The Hobbit does have sleeping elves. They were really drunk, though. So perhaps you could change immunity to resistance to keep things at a manageable LA?

 

[Arkhandus]

I basically agree with Afrodyte's assessment, having read the Silmarillion recently. A Str boost doesn't fit the Noldor so well as an Int boost or a higher Dex boost. Really, I think Middle Earth elves are more graceful than a mere +2 Dex. There's nothing wrong with the Dunedain's +2 Cha instead of a bonus feat, because humans are already one of the weaker Core races in D&D. There's nothing wrong with ability bonuses of +4 or higher when you're dealing with Level Adjustments, I don't see what Bront dislikes about it (several humanoids in the 3.5 Core Rules, and in 3.0 Savage Species, have a +1 Level Adjustment along with some ability scores at +4 or higher).

Elves of Middle Earth do sleep, I think, but they are probably lighter sleepers than humans (maybe they only need to sleep 4 or 6 hours instead of 8). Also, your description of their immunities seems to imply that they are immune to all Enchantment effects? Or is it supposed to be immunity to all sleep enchantments? I would not give them immunity to Enchantment effects in general, definitely not. The Enemy was able to tempt and influence the First children of Iluvatar even before the coming of Men, the Followers. And the One Ring certainly held the power to influence the thoughts of elves, yet it was a mere creation of Sauron, the second Enemy and apprentice to the first. Elves may deserve a +2 racial bonus on Will saves perhaps, but that's all.

 

[Fealak]

Thank you very much to all!

I think Sindar and Silvan elves are quite similar because they are different cultures but the same origin... They adapt in their environment so they have different skill bonuses. Its only my opinion . I compared Aasimar with my Sindar and Silvan elves and I think they are very close. Perhaps for combat Aasimar are better but elves have more little things. I have study all your ideas and make the best I can . About Noldor I put the same statistics because they were very powerful in the past, and the lvl adjustment +2 do lesser impact for the warriors. That´s all. About the Noldor have better bonuses for abilities than the other elves and have something similar to Divine Grace (but only for Fortitude and Will saves). I read the savage species and there good bonuses to abilities its only a +1 lvl adjustment and the ogre example has +10 str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 sab, -4 Car... I think this is very unbalanced (very good bonuses to Con and Str, more important abilities than mental) and it only worth a +1 lvl adjustment ¬¬ So I think the divine grace deserves a one more lvl adjustment.
I have used the idea about sleeping elves and I think they sleep in a similar way of the human meditation and less hours. So, they aren´t inmmune to sleeping and I really agree with Arkandhus about their inmunity ti enchantments...

I think I am really near about I want to do, here I post the new elves modified with some of your ideas. So you can talk about them and help me finally fit them with the Level adjustment (I think they fit, but I have a problem about Sindar and Silvan elves to make a division) Here they are!:

Sindar and Silvan elves

• +2 Dex, +2 Cha (Perhaps +2 Dex, and +2 Sab for Silvan?)
• Medium-size
• Base speed 30 feet
• Under the stars vision - (Low-light vision)
• Immunity to non-magical diseases (About mummy rots etc... That doesn´t exist in Middle Earth so I think I can drop them).
• Inmortality: Only the mark of the grief or a violent death can beat down the elves. No age maximun limit.*
• Elven Dream: Sleep is more close to Human meditation than sleeping. They only need rest for 4 hours.
• Elven perception: +2 spot, search and listen.
• [Sindar] +4 Perform (Sing) y +4 Profession (Sailor) (Any ideas here or something to change?)
• [Silvanos] +4 Perform (Sing) y +4 Knowledge (Nature)
• Elven Lore: Knowledge skills are class skill for the elves. (Too powerful?)
• Pass without trace at will... (very powerful? ... Compared to aasimar light I think so but they have other things like resistances)
• Inmunity to ghost-scorn.
• Elven blood: Here I give them a Feat that makes them a few magic skill as class skills (three) and none related to combat.
• Level Adjustment: +1. (Too low or too high? I think they are similar to Aasimar [perhaps Pass without grace makes elves very powerful...])
• Optional Rules (recommended):
  • Only Aligment Good. No Barbarian or Rogue Class elegible for Elves. (I´am thinking in a Explorer Class that fits better elven races than Rogues)

Noldor Elves

• +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +4 Cha [Perhaps +2 to Str can be changed for +2 Int... But the Noldor warriors could be a little less powered then... About Charisma, they need to have +4 because their graceful and personality power!]
• (They have the same things like Sindar and Silvan but
• +4 Craft and +4 Appraise checks instead the Silvan or Sindar elf bonuses.
• Inner Light: They add Charisma bonuses to Fortitude and Will save checks.
• Level Adjustment: +2.

Thanks again to all! You are helping me a lot!!! And sorry again for my english I try to do my best but sometimes I read and write too quickly because I make it in school and then I make a lot of mistakes

 

[Arkhandus]

I just have to note, for your sake, that Savage Species isn't that great at pinpointing stuff. The book's terribly vague with most abilities and would have nearly any race (even several of the core races) possess a few points of Level Adjustment, if you went by its odd measurements of what's worth a Level Adjustment. Also, regarding the Ogre; Savage Species only gives the Ogre a low LA because it also has a few racial hit dice, and those racial hit dice are rather weak compared to, say, Fighter hit dice. The Ogre's Level Adjustment alone doesn't make up for its high Str/Con; it's the Ogre's required racial hit dice that contribute nearly just as much to that, because of their inferiority to PC class levels.

 

[Fealak]

Ouch!

Well , thanks for your tips but you like more the new proposal? (the elves modified)
Thanks for your tips!

 

[Arkhandus]

Your latest versions seem fine for their listed Level Adjustments. I'd consider swapping out the Noldor's +2 Strength for a more appropriate +2 Intelligence, then give them Toughness once as a bonus feat and one other bonus feat of their choice from amongst Combat Expertise and Power Attack, without needing to meet the normal prerequisites for those. That'll shore up the warriors a bit while still fitting the image of elvenkind as slender and clever.

 

[Baragos]

Someone wrote "Low-light Vision [30 ft?]"

Low-light vision is not measured in feats in the D&D rules. It doubles the range (or triples, quadruples, etc.) of illumination for the character having the ability. So if an elf with Low-light Vision (x4) is carrying a candle (illuminates 5 ft. radius +5 ft shadowy) the elf would be able to see clearly out to 20 ft. and shadowy (20% miss chance) to 40 ft.

Baronovan: Your elven things are very cool and portray the Tolkien elves fairly good, but for a game they are broken. First of, they're way too powerful for anyone playing them "as is!. Secondly, +7 ECL modifier?? So this very powerful elven lord (equivalent to perhaps an 8th-level character) will have between 4 and 12 HP + Con modifier, whereas the equally human warrior (also equivalent to an 8th-level character) will have an average of 40 + 8 times Con modifier. Ok, a true elven lord (say Elrond for instance) would be an epic level character (having had a few AGES to gain those levels), but still. ECL that high without racial HD doesn't work...

That being said I also think the standard elf from D&D is way too weak...I normally use it for "half-elves" and disallow "true elves"...

 

[Fealak]

Ok! I will study your idea Arkhandus thank you very much and to all! Any idea about dividing Sindar and Silvan elves or they are good as they are? Thnx agaaain!