Adding sorcerer levels to a Dragon

[Scion]

Nothing at all. It just has to burn a feat

What feat grants a sorcerer level? something in the draconomicon?

 

[Krafen]

Improved Familiar is the feat. The sorcerer levels are just the dragon taking levels as a sorcerer.

 

[Scion]

Improved Familiar is the feat. The sorcerer levels are just the dragon taking levels as a sorcerer.

Of course improved familiar is a feat. I suppose he must've misread my post above, these things happen. I dont have the draconomicon though so thought perhaps he meant something from that.

But a level of sorcerer supposedly adds on a +1 cr, hence why I asked if people actually added it or not. It isnt really a huge power increase for that level of creature.

 

[Will]

Yeah, that's something that makes me go 'hrm.'

Dragons have CR roughly 2/3 of their HD (glancing at a few examples), based on their combination of abilities and relative lack of high powered magic.

I think accurately speaking, a sorcerer class level would also be about +2/3 CR, converging to 1 CR as you add more. I base this on calculations for monsters in the MM.

That's, er, hard to work with though!

 

[James McMurray]

The 1st sorcerer level gives an average dragon access to a new spell level. That sounds ike its worth +1 CR to me.

 

[Scion]

Do a couple of third level spells really make a CR 14 dragon into a CR 15 challenge? I doubt it. A few extra hp is pretty minor (since it is something like 7 extra, no big deal), couple of points to already massive saves, doesnt really improve any of the creatures natural abilites, no extra BAB.. not exactly awe inspiring.

The familiar is cool, the extra third level of spells are nice, but does it really change CR 14 to 15? Tough call.

 

[Alzrius]

Do a couple of third level spells really make a CR 14 dragon into a CR 15 challenge? I doubt it. A few extra hp is pretty minor (since it is something like 7 extra, no big deal), couple of points to already massive saves, doesnt really improve any of the creatures natural abilites, no extra BAB.. not exactly awe inspiring.

The familiar is cool, the extra third level of spells are nice, but does it really change CR 14 to 15? Tough call.

Roughly speaking, you could say the same thing about an 18th level Wizard NPC becoming a 19th level wizard NPC. After all, they only get a couple more hit points and skill points, it doesn't increase their saves or grant them a feat, it doesn't raise their BAB, and it only gives them an additional 7th and 9th level spell slot. So should that NPC really be CR 19 instead of 18?

It seems like a clear "yes".

 

[Scion]

Roughly speaking, you could say the same thing about an 18th level Wizard NPC becoming a 19th level wizard NPC. After all, they only get a couple more hit points and skill points, it doesn't increase their saves or grant them a feat, it doesn't raise their BAB, and it only gives them an additional 7th and 9th level spell slot. So should that NPC really be CR 19 instead of 18?

It seems like a clear "yes".

You are comparing a 3rd level spell to a 7th and 9th level spell???

There is a very big difference between those. Very big. Huge. Enormous. Gigantic. I could go on

There isnt even any comparison there. An extra 7th and 9th level spell increases what the mage does incredibly.

A third level spell does nearly nothing compared to the dragons already mighty prowess. It just isnt a factor in most cases.

Plus, the mage doesnt have a ton of hp anyway so a few more is good. A bonus of more than 10% of your hp is much better than a bonus of less than 3%.

The wizard only casts spells, and he just got some very major ones.

This dragon doesnt do a whole lot with spells, its other abilities are just plain better in nearly every way. The ones he just got are mainly for flavor, they wont do much to a band of 14th+ level pc's.

 

[Alzrius]

You are comparing a 3rd level spell to a 7th and 9th level spell???

[...]

There isnt even any comparison there. An extra 7th and 9th level spell increases what the mage does incredibly.

A third level spell does nearly nothing compared to the dragons already mighty prowess. It just isnt a factor in most cases.

In a word, yes. The wizard in this case is gaining almost nothing (few hit points and skill points) aside from those two spell slots. Given that he already has some for those already, it isn't that much of an increase in power that it alone deserves a CR increase...or is it?

Obviously, it is. Likewise, then, the same should hold true for a dragon.

Incidentally, you mention that a CR 14 dragon would become a CR 15 creature for only gaining a "couple of third level spells". I decided to try and see where this would apply:

A mature adult black dragon is CR 14, and casts spells as a 5th level Sorcerer. Gaining a sorcerer level not only grants it an additional 3rd level spell, but also an additional 1st and 2nd level spell slot also (bonus spells due to high Charisma). And of course, it'd gain three 4th level spell slots...quite a jump in spellcasting power, and more than worthy of a CR increase.

Likewise, even if the instance were more generic than that, it'd still be worth the CR increase. A 3rd level spell slot can be used for a fireball, lightning bolt or what have you. It's the same as the superlatives you use for the 18th/19th level mage, just on a lower power-scale. Between that and the skill and hp increase (and depending on when it's taken, feat and/or ability increase), plus the save increase, altogether it does add up to being worth an CR +1.

 

[James McMurray]

The jump from 5th level sorcerer to 6th level sorcerer is worth +1 CR for n NPC Sorcerer. Why wouldn't it be the same for a dragon?

3rd level spells include:

• Haste: extra speed, AC, to hot, and one more attack
• Displacement: Good luck hitting me
• Blink: Ditto, but spells are also screwed
• Invisibility Purge: Now that dragons have blindsense instead of sight, this could be very useful.
• Protection from Energy: cover the weak spot with 72 points of protection
• Wind Wall: Archers will have a hard time hitting the flyby attacking dragon with more than one arrow
• Heroism: bonuses to combat are always handy
• Two of these cause exhaustion no matter what the saving throw results are. A dragon won't have a problem making the touch attack
• Gaseous Form: Dear Lord! Its a draco vampire! Even without the ability to strike fear into the hearts of players, gaseous form is an excellent addition. Good luck finding my lair when you have to be able to squeeze through a 2" hole to reach it.

That's just the core options. If you've got the Draconomicon, you've got tons of options designed specifically for dragons. Giving a dragon more spells to accentuate his already phenomenal combat capabilities, shore up his few weak spots, or make his lair incredibly hard to find is most definitely worth a CR increase, whether the addition is is entire levels of spells or just new spells at an already existing spell level in the dragon's repertoire (which is what happens when you add a second level to the dragon).