Adding Templates to Solos?

[drquestion]

I can't seem to find any guidelines in the DMG for adding templates to solo monsters. Am I just being obtuse and missing them?

If not, does anyone have thoughts on what to do if I want to make, say, a dragon who's also a wizard?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I don't think you're missing them.

I would suggest applying the template as part of raising the level of the creature by one or two. You might want to use the wizard powers to replace some solo powers as well or as a different option entirely.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Templates work by moving normal monsters to Elites, and Elites to Solos, adding Templates to Solos would make them "double Solos" or "annoying and unfun".

 

[drquestion]

Templates work by moving normal monsters to Elites, and Elites to Solos, adding Templates to Solos would make them "double Solos" or "annoying and unfun".

I realize that adding more HP and raising defenses and saves wouldn't work for solos, but what if I want to add the powers from a template (I'm thinking specifically of class templates here)?

If you just add the powers, it obviously increases the power of the solo, but how much?

I suppose one solution would be just to swap out class powers for things the solo already has, but it would be nice to have some guidelines for adding new powers, too.

 

[drquestion]

I would suggest applying the template as part of raising the level of the creature by one or two. You might want to use the wizard powers to replace some solo powers as well or as a different option entirely.

Thanks, that seems like a good starting point. I guess what I'd like is a clearer idea of how much adding options, versus raising the numbers, adds to a creature. I'm not sure I have a good sense of that yet.

 

[Lizard]

Templates work by moving normal monsters to Elites, and Elites to Solos, adding Templates to Solos would make them "double Solos" or "annoying and unfun".

Then, and this is not snarky, how do I create a Draconic Wizard, or a vampire beholder, or other such things?

I suppose I could start by first making an Elite Dragon (or whatever) using the monster creation guidelines, and then applying the template.

I would also say -- just add the powers of the template and ignore the increased defenses, hit points, action points, save bonuses, and so on. This generally gives the creature more *choices* but not more *power*, given the whole action economy. It will have just as many hit points, the same defenses, and so on, but it will have alternate options.

 

[Andur]

They work quite well actually, just takes a little compare/contrast to accomplish.

Scion of Flame Adult Red Dragon (Level 19 Solo Soldier/Controller 12,000)
hp: 900ish (8*level + Con), AC 37, Fort 36, Ref 33, Will 32 add +2 to all attacks.

Can turn it's Frightful Presence into a Fire, Fear attack and its Claw attack into a Fire attack.

Now, how did I come up with Level 19, looked at level 18-22 Solo's and compared new HP totals, also compared level 18-22 Elite XP's. Overall this will be a tad weaker than other level 19 solo's, but not significantly so.

Throwing on another template like the Fighter template would turn it into about a level 23-24 solo.

Not sure if the +4 level thing is coincidence or "planned" but it seems to hold true for the couple I've run through. Just remember to increase defenses by level and template.

 

[hamishspence]

Elite Solos

I put up a post a way back on elite solo monsters. My version was: Treat the "Counts as 2 monsters for XP and encounter building"
as "counts as one extra monster". Treat "1 action point" as "1 extra action point" Keep everything else.

So, a Elite Solo monster would have: +7 to saves, extra hp, 3 action points, and count as 6 monsters.

Not playtested yet. I figured it would be a good way to bring back old favourites: Dragon Liches would keep more of the flavour of their normal dragon type than Dracoliches.

Also, Wizard template applied to dragons makes for a dragon much more like the old style.

 

[Grazzt]

I would also say -- just add the powers of the template and ignore the increased defenses, hit points, action points, save bonuses, and so on. This generally gives the creature more *choices* but not more *power*, given the whole action economy. It will have just as many hit points, the same defenses, and so on, but it will have alternate options.

This would be how I would do it most likely. Just add the powers.

 

[keterys]

Not sure if the +4 level thing is coincidence or "planned" but it seems to hold true for the couple I've run through. Just remember to increase defenses by level and template.

Basic math of the system:
+4 levels = Double XP
+9 levels = x5 XP

I've been using it to take higher level monsters and reduce their level and make them into elites or solos or to up a mob by 8 levels and make it an elite. Lets me use something over an even wider range, but retain more of the 'Uhoh, it's an X!' factor or 'Wow, I remember when draconians were tough!'.