Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[DracoSuave]

Your analogy doesn't really describe the relationship I'm suggesting. A Critical hit is not a PART of a hit, nor is it something normally included IN a hit, like your steering wheel. I'm saying that it's a special TYPE of hit, so my analogy of a BMW 323i as a TYPE of car is much closer to what I'm suggesting. You are free to suggest that a critical hit is just a BMW and not necessarily a car (they make motorcycles as well).

So... um... his logic still applies ya?

But regardless:

The idea that a crit = hit is founded in several places, and building an argument that uses this idea to prove someing else is not circular. A circular argument is when you use an asusmption to prove that very thing you're assuming.

This would be a convincing argument except for one single flaw. The idea that a crit does not always hit is founded in the very rules that describe crits in the first place. So you have rules -outside- critical hit that tell you what to do when you critically hit successfully, and that's all fine and good, but you have to successfully do so first--and the critical hit rules themselves tell you that this is not always the case. So, you have 'suggestions' it might not get cancelled, but your opposing camp has a -rule- that says it does get cancelled.

Now, it doesn't say that the attack that provokes must be a ranged attack, so do we assume that since the general rules were not specifically overridden? No, we just do what the power allows in generic form. When the target attacks (in any way) we get an opportunity attack, and what's more, even though we're ignoring normal requirements of the opportunity attack, we must still reference what the definition of an opportunity attack IS (a basic melee attack).

It adds on an additional method to provoke an attack of opportunity. It says '____ provokes an opportunity attack'. Plain language. Flat out -says- it. What is different is Holy Ardor does not flat out say that you hit, and you have language that says you do not hit in the rules themselves.

As well, opportunity attacks do not tell you that you cannot OA from melee or close attacks, or suggest that you can't. What it tells you is a list of times when you do so. And then it adds this on. Critical hits, on the other hand, gives you a short list of times when a critical can be an automatic hit (on a natural-20, and even then automatic hit <> critical) and then -flat out tells you- that non-20s do not qualify.


The two examples seem similiar but there are quite jarring differences between them, logically.

Now don't get all "Dracosuave" on me here. Most of the exchanges so far have been civil enough to leave out statements like these, as much as we both might feel like saying them.

Heh.

Also, to prestall a rebuttal, 'automatic hit' within the critical hit rules clearly refers to the instance where you ignore the normal hit resolution rules and not to cases where you ignore what the dice say or do. You -know- this because you actually have to roll the dice and check what you roll before the automatic hit from a 20 can even be applied.

So, if your dice are rolling on the table, and you're skipping the hit roll, then that's what is refered to by 'automatic hit'. So yes, it -is- applicable in the case of Precision and Holy Ardor.

1. Holy Ardor provides a new way to score a critical hit.
2. Since this is the case we can skip straight to applying critical damage.

In the first case, yes, it -is- a new way of scoring a critical hit. But that means we must apply the critical hit rules, and one of them says you have to check to see if it is a natural 20, because if not, you do not have an automatic hit, and therefore -must- check the normal hit rules in order to continue.

If you have a critical hit, you apply the critical hit rules. You do not -skip- the critical hit rules unless you are told to do so.

So, again, I challenge you:

Find me the automatic hit. If it exists it is in the green parts:

Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of emnity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll , except if both rolls are 1.

The red parts are directly refered to by Precision, and Precision has every reason to modify it. Show me language in there that either claims Precision does not, or that the ability circumvents Precision.

That is all you need to do to prove your case, is -prove- the rule does not apply. When a rule has language that states it applies, it applies in the absense of an exception. Show the -exception.-

That is the -one- thing you have yet to do.

 

[ricardo440]

Wow 18 pages. Can't profess to reading them all.

When I first read the power I thought any double (hit or miss normally) would cause a critical hit.
The mention of the "doesn't work on double 1s" I thought implied that was the only miss it wouldn't work on (or why mention it).
And I assumed it was a niffty way of increasing the critical chance by a reasonable amount in an interesting way.
I thought the idea was doubles were cooler than criticalling on a 19-20 (which would give a very different extra crit percentage, much better in fact), So it increased your chances of criticalling a bit (about 5%).

I can see the arguments of the people saying you still need to hit. But I just think it would have been worded differently, and its intention is kinda missed.
I think the idea is as you play, you roll and a double comes up and "YES!" you critical, you don't need to work out anything else. See the double and you win the prize.


BTW I have no real rules arguments to back this up, nor do I want to. I think others have done enough of that already. This is just how I thought having read the power.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think the idea is as you play, you roll and a double comes up and "YES!" you critical, you don't need to work out anything else. See the double and you win the prize.

Putting the rules lawyer and math analysis part of me aside for a moment.

This is a perfectly legitimate reason for a DM to rule.

See the doubles. Win the prize.

Nicely put.

 

[Artoomis]

Wow that's an awful way to argue. Why in any way would the simpler interpretation be more reasonable, correct, or better in any way...

Consdier it a rebuttable to the ealrtier Occam's Razor argument.

 

[keterys]

Putting the rules lawyer and math analysis part of me aside for a moment.

This is a perfectly legitimate reason for a DM to rule.

See the doubles. Win the prize.

Nicely put.

It's why I very much suspect the intent is for it to work that way, even if I think the written is clearly otherwise.

For most games, just go with whatever you (where you is, I suppose, the DM) think will be better for the game. For something like LFR, you're slightly more shackled depending on the group.

 

[Artoomis]

It's why I very much suspect the intent is for it to work that way, even if I think the written is clearly otherwise.

For most games, just go with whatever you (where you is, I suppose, the DM) think will be better for the game. For something like LFR, you're slightly more shackled depending on the group.

Right now, for LFR, you've got a really good argument for playing it either way, as shown by this discussion, so it will be a DM's call until WotC puts out some form of clarification.

I could see DM's calling it either way and standing behind that call - and they'd be correct (as in LFR correct) no matter which whey they ruled.

 

[N8Ball]

Also, to prestall a rebuttal, 'automatic hit' within the critical hit rules clearly refers to the instance where you ignore the normal hit resolution rules and not to cases where you ignore what the dice say or do. You -know- this because you actually have to roll the dice and check what you roll before the automatic hit from a 20 can even be applied.

So, if your dice are rolling on the table, and you're skipping the hit roll, then that's what is refered to by 'automatic hit'. So yes, it -is- applicable in the case of Precision and Holy Ardor.

"Automatic hit" refers to ONE way to skip the normal to hit rules. The text under automatic hit does not say "whenever you skip the hit-resolution it's an automatic hit" or anything of the sort. Until Holy Ardor, it was the only way, but not because it explicitly said it governed all similar cases where you skip the math part of hitting, it was because it was the only rule so far that described skipping those rules.

So, when I skip the hit roll by using Holy Ardor, I am NOT using the automatic hit rule, nor am I changing the Automatic hit rule (so Precision is satisfied). I'm doing something independent of it and achieving similar results. That's why you can't find "Automatic Hit" anywhere, because Holy Ardor doesn't use it or modify it.

Also, sorry for using your name as an adjective, that was out of bounds on my part.

 

[CovertOps]

Darn work...I just can't reply quick enough to keep up.

I'm curious about something among those of us saying Critical Hit <> Hit (Flipguarder, Keyters, myself, Draco, and any others I may have left out). Do any of you believe that RAI is the same as the position we are defending?

I'll start. I'm not really sure anymore what the intent was. In general I think the feature is underpowered and should be granted the slight increase in crit range and be given the hit even on double 2's, but would want this clearly stated in the body of the power so it becomes an exception like any other power with exceptions.


Hit rules (p276 PHB)
...

Critical Hit rules (p278 PHB)
...

To me "score a critical hit" means you met the requirements listed on p278 for getting a critical. It does not mean you met the requirements of "Hit" on p276. It does not say that in any way in the body of the power nor does it give you an exception from the "Hit" rules only an exception to the "Critical Hit" rules. "Critical Hit" is indented under the "Hit" rules and clearly subordinate. The "Hit" rules have a higher priority in cases where the "Critical Hit" rules might say otherwise.

1. The "Hit" rules tell you that if you hit you might have a critical. See the rules on Criticals.
2. Holy Ardor grants you a "Critical Hit".
3. If you have "Hit" then Holy Ardor overrides the requirements of criticals on p278 and you can now go straight to max damage.


Their position is that "Hit" is a requirement of "Critical Hit" and therefore granting one gives the other.

1. I am granted a "Critical Hit" by Holy Ardor.
2. By definition a "Critical Hit" must be a "Hit"
3. So now a subordinate rule ("Critical Hit") just told the "Hit" rules that they don't apply to the "Critical Hit" rules. This is deeply flawed.

It means that while you need to "Hit" in order to get a "Critical Hit" all you need to do is be granted a "Critical Hit" and suddenly the "Hit" rules become subordinate to the "Critical Hit" rules. So this means that "Critical Hit" rules can override the "Hit" rules? This is circular logic.

 

[DracoSuave]

"Automatic hit" refers to ONE way to skip the normal to hit rules. The text under automatic hit does not say "whenever you skip the hit-resolution it's an automatic hit" or anything of the sort. Until Holy Ardor, it was the only way, but not because it explicitly said it governed all similar cases where you skip the math part of hitting, it was because it was the only rule so far that described skipping those rules.

So, when I skip the hit roll by using Holy Ardor, I am NOT using the automatic hit rule, nor am I changing the Automatic hit rule (so Precision is satisfied). I'm doing something independent of it and achieving similar results. That's why you can't find "Automatic Hit" anywhere, because Holy Ardor doesn't use it or modify it.

You missed the point here.

Precision uses automatic hit to refer to cases where the results of the dice allow you to skip normal hit-resolution. You are telling us that Holy Ardor gives a situation that allows you to skip normal hit-resolution based on the results of the dice.

The implication here is that they are, in fact, refering to the same thing.

Regardless, the point stands: without text saying that you -do- hit, you must apply all normal rules. In the absense of 'You hit' you apply the rules of Critical hit, which include 'Only a 20 is an automatic hit'.

Both instances of 'automatic hit' or 'hit automaticly' are for the case of natural 20, where it says: 'If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.'

So thusly, the -only- precident one has for a case where one rolls and does not exceed defense but still hits -actually includes explicit text to that point.-

It even goes beyond 'when you roll a natural 20 you hit automaticly' but even goes on to say -what that means, exactly.-

Are you -honestly- trying to tell me that Holy Ardor does the same thing but without the actual text saying so? That if it meant -that- that they would neglect to say -that-, when they -do- say so, and redundantly, for the -other- case in the rules?

Seriously?

Also, sorry for using your name as an adjective, that was out of bounds on my part.

Pffft. Doesn't bother me.

EDIT:

I'm curious about something among those of us saying Critical Hit <> Hit (Flipguarder, Keyters, myself, Draco, and any others I may have left out). Do any of you believe that RAI is the same as the position we are defending?

I believe that if they'd intended for the hit to be automatic, they'd said so, or otherwise indicated this. They'd not leave the intent up to the absense of a word 'can' especially given general rules templating -is- slowly phasing out that word in many cases.

If they'd intended the hit to be automatic, they'd include '...you automaticly hit, and...' within the text.

It's not like there isn't room for it in that whitespace sitting there.

 

[keterys]

Right now, for LFR, you've got a really good argument for playing it either way

While you do believe that, I do not. Hence, as an LFR DM I would have to rule one way if I were being strict, and as an LFR player I would not try to play it your way - I wouldn't even ask. I flat out do not believe that is the rules as written, and I would find it dishonest to present it as such. Especially given the response from CS.

I do, however, strongly suspect that it is the rules as intended, so if a player in my home game wanted to play the class, I'd tell them to go with it that way unless overruled by WotC.