Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[CovertOps]

Fair enough.

Holy Ardor grants you a "Critical Hit" if you roll doubles.

You normally can't have a "Critical Hit" unless you also "Hit." Holy Ardor, however, bypasses this requirement.

So, either you hit (implied by the fact that scored a critical hit) or you scored a critical hit but missed, which seems like a contradiction in terms and must not be true.

Therefore, when you "score a critical hit" you must have also "hit."

Yes, its a bit weird and could have be written better, as no matter what way you read this power you have to make some assumptions, and we should not have to do that.

But it remains that I make no assumptions in my reading. Stick to what the rules say and not what you want to read into them.

So, either you hit (implied by the fact that scored a critical hit) or you scored a critical hit but missed, which seems like a contradiction in terms and must not be true.

The bold part is what matters. You have assumed that because it seems like a contradiction in terms that "it must not be true".

To me it is quite clear that the rules on "Hit" and the rules on "Critical Hit" are two separate rules that sometimes interact with each other. All this really proves is that Holy Ardor is no better than any other crit range power such as the Dagger Master feature because they can "score a critical" on an 18 and "Miss" as well. Ok...it also proves that the permissive language of "can score a critical hit" doesn't matter which I (and several others) have argued all along.

 

[Artoomis]

But it remains that I make no assumptions in my reading. Stick to what the rules say and not what you want to read into them.

You assume that "score a critical hit" does not mean "score a critical hit" but means "potentially score a critical hit."

That's an assumption, and a rather key one at that.

I choose to assume they meant what they wrote and "score a critical hit" really means "score a critical hit," but that, in turn, requires that we assume that when you "score a critical hit" you also "hit." Normally, of course, you can only "score a critical hit" if you have already hit (but not because of a natural 20), but Holy Ardor creates a new condition where you "score a critical hit."

All this follows the "normal" rules where a power can change how the basic rules work.

 

[Artoomis]

Precision then tells you, no wait, you can't bypass that requirement.

That's a -very- important statement there. That's the -point- behind Precision. It doesn't do anything else...

Actually, I don't think Precision really does anything.

It lets you know that, when some rule changes which number gives you a potential critical, the lower number (lower than 20) does not give you an automatic hit. This is not new, just a restatement of the obvious.

 

[Artoomis]

...All this really proves is that Holy Ardor is no better than any other crit range power such as the Dagger Master feature because they can "score a critical" on an 18 and "Miss" as well. Ok...it also proves that the permissive language of "can score a critical hit" doesn't matter which I (and several others) have argued all along.

No, it does not prove that "can' doesn't matter.

The phrasing of "can score a critical hit" re-emphasizes that this change to the number required only gives a possibility of scoring a critical hit, as opposed to Holy Ardor which creates a new mechanic (doubles) and states a new rule (scores a critical hit) for the new mechanic.

 

[Flipguarder]

I'm curious why the new mechanic of doubles is even of worthwhile mention to you Artoomis. You've referenced it several times as if it meant something, proved something, or served as supporting evidence for your argument. Why should the mechanic of rolling doubles be treated as any different than allowing you to crit on a 19?

 

[Artoomis]

I'm curious why the new mechanic of doubles is even of worthwhile mention to you Artoomis. You've referenced it several times as if it meant something, proved something, or served as supporting evidence for your argument. Why should the mechanic of rolling doubles be treated as any different than allowing you to crit on a 19?

Excellent and key question.

Rolling doubles is something entirely new. Because of that, one needs to ask, "What is the rule for what happens when you roll doubles?"

The answer is you "score a critical hit." It is defined right there is the power that tells you to use doubles for something.

It does not say you might score a critical hit or use any other language that could leave room for doubt.

So one also needs to look at it and and say is this really just "rolling numbers other than 20?" And that answer to that is "no" because looking to doubles is breaking the paradigm of rolling a die and using the result (or using the best result of mutiple rolls, which amounts to the same thing).

 

[Donderafosti]

Fun debate, FWIW, here's my take:

If you roll doubles with Holy Ardor, you WILL 'score a critical hit'. If you do not match the targets defense, you will do MAX DAMAGE to the air, or possibly the target's armor, but you WILL NOT reduce the target's HP.

If you have a feat/ability that triggers on a critical hit it should apply even if you fail to damage the target.
[I don't know all the feats and spells that have triggers like this, but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable.]
The aforementioned 'surprise knockdown' would be a perfect example, where you would hit the dude, his armor would absorb the blow but he would still be knocked prone] ('cus you followed up with a leg sweep or something cool like that.)

Any extra damage that would be applied from a crit in this situation would, of course, only damage whatever you ended up hitting (air, armor, etc.) and not directly affect the target's HP.

 

[keterys]

If you did this with a daily that did half damage on miss, would you figure out the crit damage (say 80 damage instead of the 30 of a normal hit) and do half of that (40)?

Ie:

Critical Hit: 80
Hit: 30
Miss: 15
Holy Ardored Miss: 40

 

[Artoomis]

Fun debate, FWIW, here's my take:

If you roll doubles with Holy Ardor, you WILL 'score a critical hit'. If you do not match the targets defense, you will do MAX DAMAGE to the air, or possibly the target's armor, but you WILL NOT reduce the target's HP. ...

That's been mentioned a couple of times, but I find the concept of scoriing a critical hit that is really a miss to be ludicrous.

The Critical Hit rules tell you how to score a critical hit. First hit the target, but not relying upon a natural 20, and then have the number be high enough for a critical hit.

Holy Ardor gives an entirely new way to score a critical hit - get doubles.

If you score a critical hit, you get to damage the target.

 

[Donderafosti]

Artooris, I can't say for sure, but I am quite confident that if WotC wanted to redefine the concept of 'rolling doubles' providing a crit as something that wasn't "rolling numbers other than 20" as stated in the precision rule (be honest, you are rolling numbers other than 20, they just happen to be the same) they would have clearly specified that 'this ain't your daddy's crits, normal rules need not apply'

EDIT: just saw your last post, it's right there in the crit rules...CovertOps quoted them, go back and read it...even if you roll a nat 20, there's no guarantee you'll do max damage. "you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense." p278

If you find it ludicrous, don't play that way, the rules are guidelines after all, but don't go saying that I don't know how to read =P (BIG JOKE, NO MALICE)