Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[CovertOps]

You assume that "score a critical hit" does not mean "score a critical hit" but means "potentially score a critical hit."

That's an assumption, and a rather key one at that.

I choose to assume they meant what they wrote and "score a critical hit" really means "score a critical hit," but that, in turn, requires that we assume that when you "score a critical hit" you also "hit." Normally, of course, you can only "score a critical hit" if you have already hit (but not because of a natural 20), but Holy Ardor creates a new condition where you "score a critical hit."

All this follows the "normal" rules where a power can change how the basic rules work.

To be clear I did not assume anything.

1. Holy Ardor grants a "Critical Hit".
2. "Critical Hit" says "Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage."
3. How much damage to I do?
4. I look at the power I'm using which says:

Hit: some damage.

5. What does this "Hit:" thing in front of the damage mean?
6. The rules on "Hit" tell me that if my roll was high enough to beat or equal the targets defense then "...the attack hits and deals damage, has a special effect, or both."

Now...if you want to overrule any of these mechanics in any way you need explicit text (within Holy Ardor) saying what rule it overrides and how OR go back one page where I quoted the compendium text on "Critical Hit" and find the text in there that says you "Hit" (by the way there is no such text).


A better question for you is what is the difference between "score a critical hit" and "potentially score a critical hit"? Both do max damage if you "Hit" and no damage if you "Miss" so I'm not sure I understand the difference since this is the assumption that you claim I have made. Neither one grants a "Hit" or a "Miss" which is what you need to evaluate the effect of any power you use.

Actually, I don't think Precision really does anything.

It lets you know that, when some rule changes which number gives you a potential critical, the lower number (lower than 20) does not give you an automatic hit. This is not new, just a restatement of the obvious.

This. We finally agree on something.

 

[Artoomis]

Artooris, I can't say for sure, but I am quite confident that if WotC wanted to redefine the concept of 'rolling doubles' providing a crit as something that wasn't "rolling numbers other than 20" as stated in the precision rule (be honest, you are rolling numbers other than 20, they just happen to be the same) they would have clearly specified that 'this ain't your daddy's crits, normal rules need not apply'

That would be nice, but, alas, the track record for WotC rule writing says otherwise.

When they've published clarifications in the past, sometimes they come out exactly as I expected, and sometimes exactly as those arguing against me expected.

I think they should have done a better job writing this up, though. I think we all agree on that.

 

[Artoomis]

...go back one page where I quoted the compendium text on "Critical Hit" and find the text in there that says you "Hit" (by the way there is no such text).


A better question for you is what is the difference between "score a critical hit" and "potentially score a critical hit"? Both do max damage if you "Hit" and no damage if you "Miss" so I'm not sure I understand the difference since this is the assumption that you claim I have made. Neither one grants a "Hit" or a "Miss" which is what you need to evaluate the effect of any power you use.

By definition, "score a criitcal hit" means you hit. See rules for Critical Hit.

Holy Ardor changes the prerequisites for scoring a critical hit. Since a Critical Hit, by defintion, also is a hit (as a subset of a hit, if you like), it is not possible to "score a critical hit" and yet not hit the target.

 

[CovertOps]

That's been mentioned a couple of times, but I find the concept of scoriing a critical hit that is really a miss to be ludicrous.

The problem is that your opinion doesn't matter. What matters is the rules text.

 

[abyssaldeath]

By definition, "score a criitcal hit" means you hit. See rules for Critical Hit.

Holy Ardor changes the prerequisites for scoring a critical hit. Since a Critical Hit, by defintion, also is a hit (as a subset of a hit, if you like), it is not possible to "score a critical hit" and yet not hit the target.

Where does it say that "score a critical hit" is a hit? I doesn't say that at all.

 

[Artoomis]

Where does it say that "score a critical hit" is a hit? I doesn't say that at all.

1. Critical Hit is a specific kind of a hit (or subset, or any term you like). Page 276.

2. The normal rules require a hit before it can be a critical, but note that once it is a critical hit it is indeed a hit also. Page 276 and 278.

3. A"Miss" is when the attack roll is too low, but looking at doubles is different. One half of those doubles is a miss, true, but the two die rolls together makes up a new thing, "doubles," which "score a ciritcal hit" and therefore you hit and get to do damage.

That's the way it is written. It is both ludicrous and not possible by the rules to "score a critical hit" and yet miss the target.

 

[CovertOps]

By definition, "score a criitcal hit" means you hit. See rules for Critical Hit.

Actually...no it doesn't. And if it does somewhere I want that in black and white with a page number to reference because I wasn't able to find any such thing. Again I refer to my post on the previous page where I quoted the entire "Critical Hit" rules. Nowhere in said rules does it say that you "Hit". What it DOES say is that you (paraphrasing) get to deal maximum damage.

 

[Artoomis]

The problem is that your opinion doesn't matter. What matters is the rules text.

Right - see my post just above this one.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually...no it doesn't. And if it does somewhere I want that in black and white with a page number to reference because I wasn't able to find any such thing. Again I refer to my post on the previous page where I quoted the entire "Critical Hit" rules. Nowhere in said rules does it say that you "Hit". What it DOES say is that you (paraphrasing) get to deal maximum damage.

Page 276. "Hit: ...If you roll a natural 20 ... your attack might be a critical hit. A critical hit deals maximum damage."

edit: reworded to be clearer: Critical Hit is defined as a "Hit" for it is defined under the header, "Hit" on page 276. "Critical Hit" is one of three types of Hits. The first type is just a hit (with no sub-heading), the second type is an automatic hit, the third type is a critical hit. In addition, if you actually get a critical hit (that is, you actually "score a critical hit"), you deal maximum damage. You can only deal damage if you hit, ergo, a critical hit is a hit.

Mind you, rolling high enough to potentially get a critical hit is not a hit, only actually scoring a critical hit. Holy Ardor says "you score a critical hit."

 

[CovertOps]

Page 276. "Hit: ...If you roll a natural 20 ... your attack might be a critical hit. A critical hit deals maximum damage."

There you have it. If you actually get a critical hit (that is, you actually "score a critical hit"), you deal maximum damage. You can only deal damage if you hit, ergo, a critical hit is a hit. Also. it is defined as a "Hit" for it is defined under the header, "Hit" on page 276.

Mind you, rolling high enough to potentially get a critical hit is not a hit, only actually scoring a critical hit. Holy Ardor says "you score a critical hit."

There is no basis in the rules for this assumption. Nothing in the Critical Hit rules says you "score a hit and deal damage". That is completely under the control of the "Hit" rules. As soon as you hit the word "ergo" you are now assuming and have lost your argument.

I'm not going to let you make that assumption and I'm going to keep holding your feet to the fire to PROVE that a granted "Critical Hit" is indeed a "Hit". The rules do not support this argument. You think it is silly therefore it can't be true, but that doesn't get you anywhere. Also on p276 you are quoting the "Hit" rules and not the "Critical Hit" rules. Holy Ardor says you "score a critical hit" so please reference the rules on p278 for critical hits and tell me where in THOSE rules that it says you "Hit". If you don't have books near you try going back a page and re-reading JUST the "Critical Hit" block I posted from D&DI. Nowhere in there does it grant you a "Hit". The definition of "Critical Hit" is maximum damage, but you don't get to deal damage (normally) unless you meet the "Hit" requirement listed in a given power so that you can know HOW MUCH damage you get to do.