Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Donderafosti]

If you go by what's on p276, you could only crit if you nat20'd, which is why..."Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit)." on pg278, where it explicitly states that only a natural 20 has the property 'automatic hit' (this argument was already covered by several people) so I still don't follow why you wouldn't be allowed to have a super-awesome critical mega swing that doesn't do any damage to the target (hp-wise, a creative DM might give them psychological trauma)

Like I said before tho, you've gotta play the way you want to play, the books are only there as guidelines, but...the guidelines clearly state... =P

 

[Artoomis]

So, uh, pitcher chucks a fastball at you and you REALLY get behind it, you crit the [heck] out of it, in fact, you hit the ball so hard it blows up....did you score a home run?

I'd like to hear your take on this Arty =)

How is this even close to being an applicable analogy??

However, here is a baseball analogy that works.

If you catch the ball, you might get an "out." See "OUT" below.

OUT:

When the ball is hit by the batter and you catch the ball while it is still in the air, you have scored an out. If you score an "out" that player is retired off the field.

Now along comes a new rule.

If you get three strikes you score an out.

Whoops - this says nothing about needing to catch it after you hit, or a specifically stated exception to that rule, but, as we all know, you still get an "out" and the player is still retired from the field.

You can't "score an out" and yet the player stays on the field because you did not catch the ball, which, previous to this new rule, was a requirement for an out. That's because an "Out" is defined as removing the player from the field, and that still applies regardless of how you got the out.

Holy Ardor works in much the same way - it creates a new way to score a critical hit.

But... let's not beat this analogy to death - all analogies tend to be flawed and problematical.

 

[Artoomis]

So what you are really saying is that you are ok with completely bypassing the hit rules because you don't like the terminology involved.

No, I am okay with it because that's the way Holy Ardor is written.

 

[Artoomis]

If you go by what's on p276, you could only crit if you nat20'd, ... =P

Not true.

Page 276 says if you roll a natural 20 you might get a critical hit. It in no way says this is the only way to get a critical hit. Indeed, the rules on page 278 make it clear that sometimes you can roll other than 20 to perhaps get a critical hit. But, even still, this does not preclude some power from coming up with a totally new mechanism for scoring a critical hit.

That's what holy Arbor does - creates an entirely new mechanism for scoring a critical hit. That's what "the guidelines clearly state."

 

[CovertOps]

I'm not sure I follow you here. (keep in mind I'm trying to understand your position and it's implications)

If I got a critical hit using mastery or some other crit-range enhancing ability, why would I not trigger surprise knockdown regardless of a hit or miss?

If I've scored the crit, and that's the trigger explicitly stated by the feat, doesn't it go off independent of hitting?

Let me start with some of the base assumptions (and I know you're trying to understand my position so I won't try to defend each point):

1. Every attack has 2 components to the result.
1a. Did I hit? ("Hit" "Miss") p276
1b. Did I critical? p278

This gives you a matrix outcome of (sorry I can't make this into a 2x2 grid or 3x3 to include headers):

1a. Hit
1b. Crit
1c. maximum damage

2a. Hit
2b. no-crit
2c. normal damage

3a. Miss
3b. Crit
3c. no damage

4a. Miss
4b. no-crit
4c. no damage

As in my previous post the "declarative" version of "you score a critical hit" (read this as you do max damage as long as you hit) is granting you 1b and 3b. You still have to qualify 1a or 3a since you can qualify for a "Critical Hit" and not beat the targets defenses (this works with dagger master as well as Holy Ardor).

The "conditional" version "if you score a critical hit" is depending on 1c (the outcome) in that you did max damage to the target.

This is just a rough idea of where I stand and I'll really have to think about it some more before I decide if this is really supported by the rules. I think what this comes down to (starting with Holy Ardor first) is that you've chosen to skip the step where you determine if the power hit or not FIRST so we do wind up with the outrageous situation of having a critical that misses, but I don't really see that as any different from getting an 18 on the die with Dagger Master and still missing.

 

[CovertOps]

Page 276 defines what a critical hit really is. It's clearly a special hit where you deal maximum damage. That's from page 276. Note that Page 276 says that when you roll a natural 20 you might get a critical hit, but that does not exclude other ways to get a critical hit.

In fact, page 278 tells you you might get a critical hit on rolls other than 20, as defined in some powers, and tells you how to determine if a potential critical hit (defined on page 276) turns out to actually be one or not.

Since Critical Hit is defined as a Hit vs. a Miss, well then, it must be a Hit, right? How can it not be a hit when all attack results are defined as hits or misses and a critical hit is defined under "hit" and not "miss??" Can you explain that?

I need to clarify that this information is incorrect. Critical hit is NOT defined on page 276. It IS defined on p278. References on p276 only talk about when you might score a critical and restate the max damage clause from p278. Critical Hit is defined as max damage and a few other things (enhancement bonus dice, high crit, etc).

Note that the "Natural 20" rule on p278 basically refers back to the Hit rules on p276 but doesn't actually tell you what is or is not a hit. It only tells you the default case (20 on the die) to get a critical and you don't crit if you didn't hit (automatic hit clause).

Precision (which doesn't really do anything) is just more reminder of the "Hit" rules on p276 reminding you that if some other powers let you crit on more than just 20 you still might not crit because you in fact missed (didn't hit?).....Hmmm...a Crit that misses???? Wonder where we've heard that before.

The rest is just the text of how to calculate the damage you do (this is the actual definition).

 

[Artoomis]

Let me start with some of the base assumptions (and I know you're trying to understand my position so I won't try to defend each point):

1. Every attack has 2 components to the result.
1a. Did I hit? ("Hit" "Miss") p276
1b. Did I critical? p278...

I see it differently. You could miss, hit and not critical or hit and critical.

You cannot miss and critical - those states are mutually exclusive. You can, of course, potentially get a critical hit and still miss, but that's different.

 

[Artoomis]

I need to clarify that this information is incorrect. Critical hit is NOT defined on page 276. It IS defined on p278. ...

Strongly disagree.

Page 276 defines a Critical Hit as a special subcategory of a Hit that does Maximum Damage. edit: It defines Critical Hit in terms of hit or miss (it's a hit) and getting maximum damage.

Page 278 tells you when a potential Critical Hit gets confirmed as an actual critical hit. edit: It tells you how a Critical Hit works.

edit: Page 276 is the definition, page 278 is the instructions.

To put it another way, page 276 defines what happens when you attack ("Attack Results") - the possible results are Hit or Miss. Within Hit, there are two special scenarios - Automatic Hit and Critical Hit. Both of those are Hits (by definition). Within Miss there is one special scenario - Automatic Miss.

If you successfully score a critical hit, you have had an "Attack Result" of Hit. There is no other way to categorize a successful Critical Hit, even if some special power let you skip the normal requirement of rolling high enough to at least tie the target's defense score.

 

[Artoomis]

Rules Compenduim:

Hit

If the attack roll is higher than or equal to the defense score, the attack hits and deals damage, has a special effect, or both.

Automatic Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack automatically hits.

Critical Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack might be a critical hit. A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit.

Analysis: Critical Hit is only defined in terms of the three types of a Hit. Note the core definition: A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit. The first sentence about rolling a 20 describes one situation where you might score a critical hit.

Conclusion: A Critical Hit is a type of hit that deals maximum damage (and maybe other effects).

Crtiical Hit

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

Anaylsis: This does not even actually say you roll critical damage when you score a critical hit - you need the "Hit" definitions for that.

Since with Holy Ardor "doubles" you score a critical hit, then you refer to the definition:, "A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit." I don't even need to dispute whole tortured logic of whether it is not a "hit" - the defintion says, in essence, "score a critical hit, do the damage," so that's all you need.

That's true if you attempt the argument of a Critical Hit is not Hit. That is a fallacy and contrary to the definition, rules placement and even the words themselves of Critical Hit.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't agree with as I don't think Precision is even a rule but just a re-statement of some rules, but can accept it. This argument essentially says that "score a critical hit" really means "potentially score a critical hit."

See, there's the problem. You are flat out choosing to disregard Precision because it is inconvenient to your argument. It is rules text. It is contained within rules text. It might seem redundant, but so seems the OA rules regarding Ranged attacks and Ranged powers... yet as it turns out, the answer is -both- and that actually -means- something non-trivial... it -isn't- redundant.

In this case Precision -seems- redundant, but seeing as it has a direct effect on this case, it is, in fact, -not- redundant.

You are admitting to ignoring a rule to make your case.

Explain to us how you didn't just lose the argument.

I cannot accept an argument that say you can score a critical hit and yet not hit.

Your entire argument hinges on how other abilities 'can score a critical hit' and yet not hit, and how you believe Holy Ardor is different from that.

However, to prove this wrong:

'I cannot accept an argument that says you can X and yet not X.'

Effect: An ally shifts 5 squares.

You are immobilized when this affects you.

You have an ability that says you can X. But yet, you cannot X.

So, -yes- it is possible, so you might not be able to accept the argument, but that is from stubbornness and not from facts and evidence presented.