Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[DracoSuave]

It's also been proven that words are important, especially when creating a new exception. If every clearly stated exception (like, "you score a critical hit") were to be picked apart like this one, then a whole host of powers would not work as designed and the game would break down.

Wow - see how easily that argument works both ways.

I agree words can be important. But we're not talking about 'words'. We're talking about -a- specific word in -a- specific sense and -a- specific meaning. And it is proven that specific meaning is not important, that specific sense is not important, and that specific word is not important.

The fallacy in your argument is this:

'Some dogs are black'
'Therefore, this chihuahua must be black, even tho you claim it appears white.'

Basic Logic Fail.

My argument here is basically simple.

Normally, to score a critical hit you must first score a certain number on the die, and that number must also at least tie the target's defense.

That certain number is natural 20. It is not anything else -but- natural 20. You are using the existance of other abilities to insinuate that the natural 20 rule includes them as part of its meaning, when it makes no such claim, and, in fact, -denies- such a claim in the very text of the governing rules.

...cause then Precision tells you other abilities exist that do not require a natural 20, but that they are not automatic hits.

So, that means that exceptions to natural 20 are specifically called out by Precision.

With Holy Ardor, instead you roll doubles - and that's it, because the power says that at that point you have scored a critical hit. Because it clearly states "you score a critical hit," you need go no further - you're done. You've got the crit.

At which point you apply the critical hit rules. One of which says that there are exceptions to the natural 20, and that they do not automaticly hit.

So the rules for critical hits do, in fact, apply to this.

The rules about needing to first tie the defender's score have been superseded.

By what, exactly? The rules for critical hits, -invoked- by the 'scoring of a critical hit' tell you not to supercede those same rules.

 

[N8Ball]

This is just a rough idea of where I stand and I'll really have to think about it some more before I decide if this is really supported by the rules. I think what this comes down to (starting with Holy Ardor first) is that you've chosen to skip the step where you determine if the power hit or not FIRST so we do wind up with the outrageous situation of having a critical that misses, but I don't really see that as any different from getting an 18 on the die with Dagger Master and still missing.

I would agree that the Holy Ardor double-2-miss should be treated as the same as a Daggermasters 18-miss or for that matter any rogue that used a 17-20 crit power (there are 2 in the PHB) but failed to achieve a hitting attack score. Under this intrepretation they would both seem to be crits that didn't hit.

The "conditional" version "if you score a critical hit" is depending on 1c (the outcome) in that you did max damage to the target.

I see where you are going here, and that would make sense, but I can't find anywhere in the rules to support that difference.

I think any player with the conditional "if you score..." ability would rightfully look to his other abilities that say "you score a crit on a 18-20" as justification for kicking off those powers when he rolled an 18-20.

 

[N8Ball]

... The game works....

Yes, it does. But if it works the way you suggest, what are the consequences?

Won't my rogue kick off all kinds of "When you score a critical hit..." abilities while missing within his crit range of 18-20? (see my last 2 posts to CovertOps)

 

[CovertOps]

Since we don't like the hit rules let's go back even further.

I know already what you're going to say....Holy Ardor says you "score a critical hit" so go straight to apply maximum damage so consider it said already and don't trot it out again.

Page 269 Making an attack

This is an ordered list and therefore MUST be performed in the order given.

1. Choose the attack you'll use. Each attack has an attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 273). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273)

Commentary: At this step OoE kicks in and allows you to roll 2 dice and pick the higher result.

4. Compare your attack roll to the target's defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276).

Commentary: At this step Holy Ardor kicks in if you rolled doubles. If you got a crit you can now use powers that proc based on a crit.

N8Ball: Does this resolve our problem of the powers that proc when you crit?

Artoomis: Does this resolve your problem of crits that miss since that is not possible if you actually follow the rules in the order presented?

Oh and by the way Artoomis don't even bother saying that Holy Ardor overrides this rule other than in the way I have outlined above because it doesn't.

Also note that I didn't realize this was in the rules, but

1. Using OoE roll 2 dice and pick the larger of the 2 results (at this point it does not matter if you roll doubles).
2. Add your bonuses and check the targets defense to determine if you hit the target.
3. IF you indeed hit now go back and check if you rolled doubles (Holy Ardor), or rolled a 20.

I can't believe you all think that Holy Ardor allows you to ignore this.

Where does it state when you check doubles? It never says that it must be after (or dependent on) a successful hit roll. I want to check first, what's wrong with that?

And in reality, that's the more likely case anyway since noticing that 2 numbers are the same is a bit faster than addition to find an attack score.

I am now satisfied. We do not need any errata for this at all unless WotC wants to have Holy Ardor grant a "Hit" on doubles that would normally miss.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, it does. But if it works the way you suggest, what are the consequences?

Won't my rogue kick off all kinds of "When you score a critical hit..." abilities while missing within his crit range of 18-20? (see my last 2 posts to CovertOps)

If it doesn't work as I describe, 'When you score a critical hit' abilities can't work -at all-.

See, in that case, critical hits don't allow you to do extra effects from feats and such, because critical hit maximum damage does not -tell- you to apply extra feat effects. And the ability allowing the critical hit doesn't tell you to apply extra feat effects.

Which means that those feat effects can't happen, because of the lack of the permissive form.

Which means, as well, you can't have maximum damage on critical hits, because even tho you score a critical hit, the power -itself- doesn't say you -can- deal so and so damage, but says you -do- deal so and so damage, thusly you can deal no more, and no less, than is stated in the power.

Oh wait. The consequences of my standpoint?

Well cause the rule tells you to cancel out the critical hit because you don't actually hit, then you don't get the feat bonuses, of course. Same as how feats that trigger on a push don't trigger if you don't actually push the enemy.

Figured that was obvious tho.

That's your consequence.

 

[N8Ball]

Page 269 Making an attack

This is an ordered list and therefore MUST be performed in the order given.

1. Choose the attack you'll use. Each attack has an attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 273). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273)

4. Compare your attack roll to the target's defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276).

N8Ball: Does this resolve our problem of the powers that proc when you crit?

Artoomis: Does this resolve your problem of crits that miss since that is not possible if you actually follow the rules in the order presented?

Good stuff Covert, very crunchy.

Though I'm not sure how you decided to put checking for doubles at the end. What is that based on? Why can't (or why wouldn't) you check for doubles as soon as the dice are rolled?

Presumably that's when you'd check for a 20 (before step 4) in order to check if you have an automatic hit (eliminating the need to check for a miss in step 4). This is also where you'd check for your crit range to see if you have a critical hit. Why not check for doubles there with all the other numbers too?

Also, I'm not sure what you're saying about crit-miss effects either. Please elaborate.

 

[CovertOps]

Good stuff Covert, very crunchy.

Though I'm not sure how you decided to put checking for doubles at the end. What is that based on? Why can't (or why wouldn't) you check for doubles as soon as the dice are rolled?

Presumably that's when you'd check for a 20 (before step 4) in order to check if you have an automatic hit (eliminating the need to check for a miss in step 4). This is also where you'd check for your crit range to see if you have a critical hit. Why not check for doubles there with all the other numbers too?

Also, I'm not sure what you're saying about crit-miss effects either. Please elaborate.

You were asking about powers that trigger if you "score a critical hit" and how would that work under my reading of the rules where you could "crit" and "miss" at the same time.

EDIT: Oh and because if you miss (step 4) you won't deal max damage (step 5). I suppose you could put it after step 4 (or technically before step 5), but I put it where if fit logically. A critical is about dealing max damage. Where else in that ordered list does it say anything about damage?

More EDIT: My commentary is actually supposed to be PART of the step it is listed under not before or after.

 

[CovertOps]

Ok...now you have me wondering. Are you talking about the actual act of you the player looking at the dice and seeing...gee I got 5 and 5 "DOUBLES" or the step in the procedure where it matters if you got doubles or not?

 

[CovertOps]

One last comment then off to bed. I now realize N8Ball that you may have been asking about the 2 quotes at the bottom of my post. My comment above them may lead you to believe they are rules text, but they are not. I was pointing out that I got very close to the actual rules text back on page 12 (post 236) of this thread, but didn't follow up on it by checking the PHB for something similar. I was also pointing out that you dismissed that comment out of hand saying that order didn't matter.

All I can say is DOH!!!!

 

[N8Ball]

There's some other stuff in that post that I really wanted to respond to, but it would have been a distraction from the point I'm trying to get at.

Well cause the rule tells you to cancel out the critical hit because you don't actually hit, ...

Hold it right there. Would you care to back that statement up with some text or something? Where in all the rulebooks does it tell you to cancel out crits because you didn't hit?