Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Artoomis]

You might want to not ungroup Precision from the lines immediately above it 'you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense.
If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.'

Well, I suppose you _do_ want to ungroup it. Carry right on.

Actually - out of curiosity - do you play or DM for a character who is an avenger and might have or take this paragon path? Or is it more just for the fun of debate?

1. Grouping it back into the lines above we get:

If you roll a 20 (or a feature or power designated number other than 20) on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically if you rolled a natural 20.

That still adds no real value and does not change the rule.

2. Just for fun of debate. And, I suppose, as a public service.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Ok, so first there is the Natural 20 rule.

If you roll a natural 20 you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense. If the attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

So this means that you do NOT score a critical hit if you miss on a natural 20. It's not "you crit, but because you miss it's only a normal hit", it's a case of "you do not score a critical hit, but you do get an automatic hit instead".

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20.

This just points out other methods of scoring criticals exist. Then, in brackets, it adds:

only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

So, when it says "you can score a critical hit on an 18-20" it means, when you roll betwen 18-20, you can score a critical hit. Only a 20 can you fail to score a critical hit and still get an automatic hit. Since it doesn't say that you do score a critical hit, you use the rule for natural 20, with the modifier that an automatic hit occurs only on a natural 20.

No one is arguing that automatic hit applies for the ardent champion. They are either arguing that rolling a pair of 2's, for example, will result in a miss OR it will result in a critical hit. No is arguing that it will result in an automatic hit (which would mean a non-critical hit).

Unlike all other critical hit class features and powers and feats ... the Ardent Champion does not allow that you can score a critical hit, but states that you actually score a critical hit. Precision says nothing about how to score a critical hit, only when other powers increase the crit range, it doesn't also increase automatic hit range. If you score a critical hit, you have hit. Normally, in order to check to see if you have scored a critical hit, you need to check to see if you have hit. This is why the powers that increase the 'crit range' all say that you can score a critical hit on 19 and 20 or 18-20, etc ... because it is possible in some corner cases to roll those numbers and not hit, and therefore, not score a critical hit.

In this case, rolling doubles instantly causes you to score a critical hit, skipping over the hit/miss check completely.

There is a difference between "hits regardless of roll and it's a critical hit as well" and "automatic hit". The latter is a specific case when you roll a natural 20 and still fail to hit, resulting in a normal hit. The former is what some are claiming is occuring. It does not contradict Precision, because people are not claiming an automatic non-critical hit when the dice are double, but the total is less than the target defense. The are claiming that a critical hit is scored that does not compare the attack roll to the target defense at all, so long as the dice are doubled and not 1's.

 

[DracoSuave]

No one is arguing that automatic hit applies for the ardent champion.

No, they're just arguing you get to hit without a resolution of the normal hit rules, to which the only precident is Natural 20.

So, you're saying it acts -exactly- like an automatic hit, talks like an automatic hit, behaves like an automatic hit, and not an automatic hit?

Buddy, you're describing an automatic hit, i.e., a hit that ignores the normal hit resolution mechanic.

I don't know how else to say that.

Precision is -not- a redundant rule. It doesn't -restate- previous rules. What it does is say 'There are other situations that score critical hits, and they do not get to circumvent the normal hit resolution.'

This is important because without that rule, the implication exists that -they do.-

Again, I say, you do not -get to choose to ignore a rule you find inconvenient to your argument.-

That is exactly what you are doing.

Your opposition has yet to ignore a rule to make a point, pretend things are defined differently to make a point.

In other words, all you've proven is that if you change the rules of the game, you're right. However, that is faulty: You're supposed to prove that if you -don't- change the rules of the game things work as you say.

But regardless. Let's prove that you crit when the ability says you crit first.

So follow me here.

You have a wisdom modifier of +4. You hit with a power that says: 'Hit: Wisdom modifier radiant damage'. It is a Ranged power, and you are attacking a Spirit Conjuration. How much damage did you deal to the conjuration?

If you go by your argument as to how the rules work, you did 4 damage. If you go by how the rules -actually- work, you did 0.

 

[DracoSuave]

There is a difference between "hits regardless of roll and it's a critical hit as well" and "automatic hit". The latter is a specific case when you roll a natural 20 and still fail to hit, resulting in a normal hit. The former is what some are claiming is occuring. It does not contradict Precision, because people are not claiming an automatic non-critical hit when the dice are double, but the total is less than the target defense. The are claiming that a critical hit is scored that does not compare the attack roll to the target defense at all, so long as the dice are doubled and not 1's.

Sadly tho, 'score a critical hit' does not include 'circumvent the hit mechanics' either. Please find where it does. -If- it does, then you'll notice it's through automatic hit rules. Precision says -no- to that.

If it doesn't, then you have a case where you're using the assumption success occured to prove that failure is impossible. You have no instance telling you success is assured, which means you have no exception to the normal hit rules, because you are not told that you hit at all.


Here's another way to look at it: You are attacking a square you think an enemy is in with a power. You have a feature that says 'You hit'. He is invisible, and is not in the square. Do you hit?

The answer is 'no' because even if the ability says you hit, you do not get to automaticly apply a hit when that hit is rendered impossible with the situation.

Here's another situation. Let's assume Holy Ardor works as you say. You roll doubles. The above situation occurs. Do you hit?

No. You already -know- you do not hit.

This means that you don't get to circumvent hit mechanics just because the text says 'You score a critical.' If it worked as you say, it would circumvent -all- methods of failure with regards to hits.

Clearly it does not, therefore the argument that 'score a critical hit' implies the hit will occur is flawed. You are missing something there, so please point out the missing premise.

 

[CovertOps]

If you use Oath of Enmity and roll doubles, you hit, unless you get double ones.

No matter what I prefer to see the specific exception. How about:
If you use Oath of Enmity and roll doubles, you hit - even if your roll does not beat the defense of the target, unless you get double ones.

This text overrides the denial text you are looking to ignore. I am curious though, if given free choice, what you would want the power to do?

For fun what about this:

If you use Oath of Enmity and roll doubles, you hit - even if your roll does not beat the defense of the target, unless you get double ones. If you use Oath of Enmity and roll doubles, and your roll does beat the defense of the target, you score a critical hit, unless you get double ones.

This gives you an increased crit range where you would normally hit and an automatic hit if you would normally miss.
EDIT: Left a loophole where you didn't need doubles to get the critical.

 

[Trebor62]

Ok, so first there is the Natural 20 rule.

If you roll a natural 20 you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense. If the attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

So this means that you do NOT score a critical hit if you miss on a natural 20. It's not "you crit, but because you miss it's only a normal hit", it's a case of "you do not score a critical hit, but you do get an automatic hit instead".

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20.

This just points out other methods of scoring criticals exist. Then, in brackets, it adds:

only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

So, when it says "you can score a critical hit on an 18-20" it means, when you roll betwen 18-20, you can score a critical hit. Only a 20 can you fail to score a critical hit and still get an automatic hit. Since it doesn't say that you do score a critical hit, you use the rule for natural 20, with the modifier that an automatic hit occurs only on a natural 20.

No one is arguing that automatic hit applies for the ardent champion. They are either arguing that rolling a pair of 2's, for example, will result in a miss OR it will result in a critical hit. No is arguing that it will result in an automatic hit (which would mean a non-critical hit).

Unlike all other critical hit class features and powers and feats ... the Ardent Champion does not allow that you can score a critical hit, but states that you actually score a critical hit. Precision says nothing about how to score a critical hit, only when other powers increase the crit range, it doesn't also increase automatic hit range. If you score a critical hit, you have hit. Normally, in order to check to see if you have scored a critical hit, you need to check to see if you have hit. This is why the powers that increase the 'crit range' all say that you can score a critical hit on 19 and 20 or 18-20, etc ... because it is possible in some corner cases to roll those numbers and not hit, and therefore, not score a critical hit.

In this case, rolling doubles instantly causes you to score a critical hit, skipping over the hit/miss check completely.

There is a difference between "hits regardless of roll and it's a critical hit as well" and "automatic hit". The latter is a specific case when you roll a natural 20 and still fail to hit, resulting in a normal hit. The former is what some are claiming is occuring. It does not contradict Precision, because people are not claiming an automatic non-critical hit when the dice are double, but the total is less than the target defense. The are claiming that a critical hit is scored that does not compare the attack roll to the target defense at all, so long as the dice are doubled and not 1's.

Excellent summation.

 

[DracoSuave]

Excellent summation.

And like I said, 'score a critical hit' does not automaticly mean a critical hit is scored. It's disproven now.

So the premise is false.

EDIT: Kraydak: When something is shown to be logically true 'unsupported by the rules' is not the right rebuttal when you agree with the premise that proves it to be the case. I.E. you agreed with 'If you crit, you must hit' means you -must- logically agree with 'If you do not Crit, you cannot hit.' The logic there is irrefutable... it's a basic law applied.

 

[kugelkj]

The are claiming that a critical hit is scored that does not compare the attack roll to the target defense at all, so long as the dice are doubled and not 1's.

This is an interesting case. Are you arguing that in the case of 20/20 that Holy Ardor overrides the Natural 20 rule and Precision? Just applying OoE, you would discard one of the dice and the Natural 20 rule kicks in (if your attack would miss, you still hit without a crit). However, with Holy Ardor in effect (your interpretation) the same number on both dice cause a critical hit regardless of your roll (except 1's).

I'm asking b/c OoE you only use one of the dice rolled as your actual roll. When Holy Ardor kicks in, do you not still discard one of the dice (even though it doesn't matter which one)? Giving you one final number... thus the Natural 20 rule kicks in.

Full Disclosure: I read 9 pages of this thread and then skipped to the last page b/c i couldn't stand the back and forth of it.

Flame on.

 

[CovertOps]

Full Disclosure: I read 9 pages of this thread and then skipped to the last page b/c i couldn't stand the back and forth of it.
Flame on.

You need to read pages 19+ which covers some new ground and pretty much proves that "Critical Hit" does not grant a "Hit" and that in this case Precision doesn't even matter.

 

[Kraydak]

And like I said, 'score a critical hit' does not automaticly mean a critical hit is scored. It's disproven now.

But it does mean that a critical hit is scored UNLESS something explicitly says otherwise, AND that thing takes rules priority. Of course, I believe we disagree about what a critical hit is, as noted below.

So the premise is false.

EDIT: Kraydak: When something is shown to be logically true 'unsupported by the rules' is not the right rebuttal when you agree with the premise that proves it to be the case. I.E. you agreed with 'If you crit, you must hit' means you -must- logically agree with 'If you do not Crit, you cannot hit.' The logic there is irrefutable... it's a basic law applied.

Two things:
a) Nowhere in the rules does it say that a critical hit must also be a hit. This is what I meant by "unsupported by the rules". People are assuming this, but there doesn't seem to be any solid reason rules-based reason for it.

b) IF you believe that "if you crit, you must hit", then a critical hit is a special kind of hit, and then Holy Ardor, being the more specific rule, trumps all else, and grants a hit (except even more specific weird corner cases like a monster being able to negate a critical hit as an encounter power...).