Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[DracoSuave]

But it does mean that a critical hit is scored UNLESS something explicitly says otherwise, AND that thing takes rules priority. Of course, I believe we disagree about what a critical hit is, as noted below.

Good point.

Two things:
a) Nowhere in the rules does it say that a critical hit must also be a hit. This is what I meant by "unsupported by the rules". People are assuming this, but there doesn't seem to be any solid reason rules-based reason for it.

That's a good point.... but the case 'it's a critical hit and therefore it must hit' is the assumption presented, the counter argument being 'In that case, if it does not hit, it must not crit' is a valid counter.

b) IF you believe that "if you crit, you must hit", then a critical hit is a special kind of hit, and then Holy Ardor, being the more specific rule, trumps all else, and grants a hit (except even more specific weird corner cases like a monster being able to negate a critical hit as an encounter power...).

I agree to a point. But that has to assume the critical hit is automaticly successful, and that the rules for how critical hits themselves work don't say otherwise (they do). That is an assumption that is impossible to make: It is -quite- possible to have an ability that automaticly crits, but does not hit, and therefore does not crit. A perfect example is rolling a natural 20 to hit an invisible man who is not in the square you elect. You don't hit him, even tho you -automatically- hit him.

Therefore 'The ability says X' is not sufficient to prove X when rules evidence exists that suggest X is not able to occur, and there is no exception noted to said rules evidence.

 

[Eldorian]

You need to read pages 19+ which covers some new ground and pretty much proves that "Critical Hit" does not grant a "Hit" and that in this case Precision doesn't even matter.

You do not need to read pages 19+, this thread is a mire of circular arguments and nitpicking of the highest degree. The fact remains that no one has given me a reason that Precision does not apply. This was pointed out on like page 2.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Two things:
a) Nowhere in the rules does it say that a critical hit must also be a hit. This is what I meant by "unsupported by the rules". People are assuming this, but there doesn't seem to be any solid reason rules-based reason for it.

b) IF you believe that "if you crit, you must hit", then a critical hit is a special kind of hit, and then Holy Ardor, being the more specific rule, trumps all else, and grants a hit (except even more specific weird corner cases like a monster being able to negate a critical hit as an encounter power...).

On page 276 Critical Hit is indented under Hit which means that a critical hit is completely contingent on you hitting first.

 

[Kraydak]

That's a good point.... but the case 'it's a critical hit and therefore it must hit' is the assumption presented, the counter argument being 'In that case, if it does not hit, it must not crit' is a valid counter.

But that isn't a counter! It is a statement of fact that is unlikely to be of relevance. If we have "it's a crit, and therefore it must hit", then "in that case, if it does not hit, it must not crit", while true, only matters if something *actively, and with priority* makes it not hit.

I agree to a point. But that has to assume the critical hit is automaticly successful, and that the rules for how critical hits themselves work don't say otherwise (they do).

The "precision" section is, flat out, wasted text. *Everything it refers to* (class features and powers, and, I guess, although not stated, feats) takes rules priority over it. Therefore, if crits don't need to be hits, it is merely belaboring the obvious, and if crits are hits, then it gets overruled by *everything it talks about*.

That is an assumption that is impossible to make: It is -quite- possible to have an ability that automaticly crits, but does not hit, and therefore does not crit. A perfect example is rolling a natural 20 to hit an invisible man who is not in the square you elect. You don't hit him, even tho you -automatically- hit him.

Therefore 'The ability says X' is not sufficient to prove X when rules evidence exists that suggest X is not able to occur, and there is no exception noted to said rules evidence.

Surprise, surprise, the *targeting* rules take priority over Mr. Natural 20. Shocker, that. Note that in this case, there IS someone with priority explicitly saying "STOP". And that is what it would take, were critical hits a subset of hits. The base hit/miss rules aren't that someone.

 

[kugelkj]

You do not need to read pages 19+, this thread is a mire of circular arguments and nitpicking of the highest degree. The fact remains that no one has given me a reason that Precision does not apply. This was pointed out on like page 2.

I am in agreement with this position. Quagmire all around.

Even if both dice show the same number (without Holy Ardor), one of those dice is ignored (though it doesn't matter which one), you determine the "roll" and if it beats the target defense you hit and deal damage. if not, you miss and apply that effect if it exists. Crits only happen when one of the dice show a natural 20 .

In the case of Holy Ardor, if both of the dice show the same number, your attack is a critical hit only if it beats the target defense (just like a die roll that shows a natural 19 crits for DaggerMaster, unless the modified attack roll does not beat the target defense, in which case you miss and apply that effect, if it exists). (thanks precision)

For those people I disagree with (i.e. those who think a pair of naturally rolled 2's is a critical hit even if your attack roll does not beat the target defense) I pose this question:

Does the case of a pair of naturally rolled 20's override the natural 20 rule? i.e. does that cause a crit even if the attack roll does not beat the target defense?

If so, why? that seems to contradict OoE: roll two dice and use EITHER result.

Was that clear?

 

[DracoSuave]

But that isn't a counter! It is a statement of fact that is unlikely to be of relevance. If we have "it's a crit, and therefore it must hit", then "in that case, if it does not hit, it must not crit", while true, only matters if something *actively, and with priority* makes it not hit.

Indeed, I agree with this. And in this case, it's a governing rule on the limitations on scoring a crit. I.E. Precision.

The "precision" section is, flat out, wasted text. *Everything it refers to* (class features and powers, and, I guess, although not stated, feats) takes rules priority over it. Therefore, if crits don't need to be hits, it is merely belaboring the obvious, and if crits are hits, then it gets overruled by *everything it talks about*.

Except its absense indicates that you'd replace a critical range with natural 20 over -all- the critical hit rules, meaning that a 19 would automaticly hit for abilities that crit over 19-20 because 19-20 would be implied to replace 20.

So, no, it is not wasted text.

It's similiar to how they say that ranged attacks and ranged powers both provoke attacks of opportunity. It -seems- the mention of ranged attacks is redundant, but there are corner cases where it is not.

This happens to be one of those corner cases.

Without Precision, any critical hit altering ability would except the entirety of the critical hit rules, and it would be a mess. Precision is there to make sure that those exceptions have a specific rule telling you how to run them. That means that it is -not- redundant, as those critical hit changing abilities are not themselves exceptions to Precision.

And -that- is why Precision is not a 'non-rule' It isn't just to clarify the crit rules to -you-. It clarifies it to class features themselves, so they know what to do.

Surprise, surprise, the *targeting* rules take priority over Mr. Natural 20. Shocker, that. Note that in this case, there IS someone with priority explicitly saying "STOP". And that is what it would take, were critical hits a subset of hits. The base hit/miss rules aren't that someone.

Absolutely, I agree. And Precision itself comes in to take precident over abilities that allow critical hits. It calls it out by name. It says 'Look, buddy, the critical hits don't except this rule.' It's a rule that creates an exception to what -would- otherwise be an exception. It's a -governing rule.-

 

[CovertOps]

You do not need to read pages 19+, this thread is a mire of circular arguments and nitpicking of the highest degree. The fact remains that no one has given me a reason that Precision does not apply. This was pointed out on like page 2.

Precision is a reminder of the rules for "Hit" found on p276. But even more important than that is this:

Since we don't like the hit rules let's go back even further.

Page 269 Making an attack
This is an ordered list and therefore MUST be performed in the order given.

1. Choose the attack you'll use. Each attack has an attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 273). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273)

Commentary: At this step OoE kicks in and allows you to roll 2 dice and pick the higher result.

4. Compare your attack roll to the target's defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276).

Commentary: At this step Holy Ardor kicks in if you rolled doubles. If you got a crit you can now use powers that proc based on a crit.

I am now satisfied. We do not need any errata for this at all unless WotC wants to have Holy Ardor grant a "Hit" on doubles that would normally miss.

What I said was "...in this case Precision doesn't even matter" which is not the same as it doesn't apply. If you roll doubles in step 3 and that roll is not good enough to beat the target's defenses (step 4) then you "Miss". Clear as day. No ifs, ands, or buts. Therefore there will never be a case where you are granted a critical by Holy Ardor on an attack roll that misses and Precision will therefore never apply because you never met the requirement of "Hit" to even get to Precision.

If on the other hand if you roll high enough on your doubles roll to hit the targets defense then you've already qualified for "Hit" and Precision doesn't matter because you met it's requirements.

So the bottom line is that no matter what you roll using Holy Ardor, Precision doesn't matter.

On a separate note I'm not convinced the rules even need Precision. Given this rules text that I quoted above from p269 it just seems redundant because you'll never be applying damage on a roll that "Missed". Based on that I'd have to adjust my comment above to say that Precision is really a reminder of this "Making an Attack" rules sequence.

Regardless of what it is or isn't, if you follow these rules and apply them - in order - you will never have a case where Precision does anything.

 

[DracoSuave]

What I said was "...in this case Precision doesn't even matter" which is not the same as it doesn't apply

The problem with that is that without it, the critical hit rules become a sum total of the entire critical hit rules block, which means that triggering a critical hit triggers -all- the rules for it. So, 19-20 -can- replace everything inside that text, creating the situation where a 19 could automaticly hit, because even tho automatic hit is a part of the hit rules, it is -also- a part of the critical hit rules, and an exception to -that- would most -definately- apply.

Therefore Precision is necessary to nail down alterna-crit rules, and make it so that they are -not- exceptions to the entirety of the critical hit rules, and therefore can't specific out the entire ruleset for critical hits, like some people are saying it does.

Specific beats general actually requires it there for the rules to work. Plus it adds clarity to seeming rules quagmires like this one. It defines the limits of such things discretely and explicitly.

An argument could be made without it, but -with it- the argument is moot as it states -flat out- what the rule is. Some people are just in denial.

 

[jgsugden]

To me, an actual lawyer, the rules are either ambiguous or in conflict. There are reasonable interpretations on both sides. Either interpretation arguably makes some of the language in the books superflous.

Result: The DM should look at the situation and decide which rule makes the most fun for his party, and then wait for official clarification.

 

[CovertOps]

The problem with that is that without it, the critical hit rules become a sum total of the entire critical hit rules block, which means that triggering a critical hit triggers -all- the rules for it. So, 19-20 -can- replace everything inside that text, creating the situation where a 19 could automaticly hit, because even tho automatic hit is a part of the hit rules, it is -also- a part of the critical hit rules, and an exception to -that- would most -definately- apply.

Therefore Precision is necessary to nail down alterna-crit rules, and make it so that they are -not- exceptions to the entirety of the critical hit rules, and therefore can't specific out the entire ruleset for critical hits, like some people are saying it does.

Specific beats general actually requires it there for the rules to work. Plus it adds clarity to seeming rules quagmires like this one. It defines the limits of such things discretely and explicitly.

An argument could be made without it, but -with it- the argument is moot as it states -flat out- what the rule is. Some people are just in denial.

So in the case of Holy Ardor, Precision does matter? Or is this a more general case that Precision is needed for other cases and my case for Holy Ardor is correct in that Precision essentially has no effect. I'm not quite clear what you're trying to get across.