Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[DracoSuave]

So in the case of Holy Ardor, Precision does matter? Or is this a more general case that Precision is needed for other cases and my case for Holy Ardor is correct in that Precision essentially has no effect. I'm not quite clear what you're trying to get across.

That Precision is necessary to establish what alterna-crit abilities except, and do not except.

While I agree that Precision should not be necessary for Holy Ardor, from a technical standpoint it is for the rules to function as we understand it to begin with.

 

[WalterKovacs]

You do not need to read pages 19+, this thread is a mire of circular arguments and nitpicking of the highest degree. The fact remains that no one has given me a reason that Precision does not apply. This was pointed out on like page 2.

Precision says too things:

(a) There are other ways to score criticals outside of 20.

(b) 20 is the only part that allows automatic hits.

An automatic hit MEANS that when you roll a 20 and do NOT beat the defense it's a hit.

It has absolutely nothing to do with critical hits, only that a 20 would normally be a critical hit IF it hit.

The Natural 20 rules explain how natural 20's work.

If you roll a 20 and you hit -> You score a critical hit.

If you roll a 20 and you miss -> You score an automatic hit.

Precision does not say anything about scoring a critical hit but not hitting (which is different than an automatic hit).

One problem is that people are confusing automatic hit (which has a specific definition in the game rules under Natural 20) with the 'score a critical hit means that you hit'.

EDIT:

What Precision says is basically this:

A Daggermaster rolls an 18, but misses (presumably they are debuffed and blind or something). It is not an automatic (non-critical) hit. Precision says that some powers will modify the Natural 20 rules to allow you to score critical hit on more than just a natural 20. Precision clarifies that just because you can score a critical hit on an 18-20, does not mean that you can get an automatic hit (a non-critical hit when you should have missed per attack roll vs. defense check).

Effects that increase crit range say you 'can' score a critical hit. Powers that cause a critical hit to occur, do not use that wording [Such as the cleric paragon path power that turns a normal hit into a critical hit ... there is also the channel divinity power that was later errata'd. Unfortunately, this is the first case where it says you DO "score a critical hit", which wasn't triggered off a normal hit anyway.

The basic argument is this:

The first paragraph, called Natural 20, basically says: "If you roll [20] and it is a hit, you score a critical hit." In the case of feats/paragon path abilities/etc that improve the crit range you change [20] to [19 or 20] or [18-20], etc ... with all the same rules applying. However, in this particular case, the ability says that you DO score a critical hit.

The normal situation is: If X then Y.
The normal modifiers says: You may Y ... and end up changing X.
For Ardent Champion it instead says: If Z then Y.

 

[CovertOps]

That Precision is necessary to establish what alterna-crit abilities except, and do not except.

While I agree that Precision should not be necessary for Holy Ardor, from a technical standpoint it is for the rules to function as we understand it to begin with.

In this case I have an intellectual exercise for those who said Precision does not apply to Holy Ardor.

Given: For any "Critical Hit" being granted there are only two outcomes possible in the Critical Hit rules.
1. Natural 20
2. All other results (including the reference back to the Hit rules where you might miss).

With the previous being assumed as fact, how would you want to see Precision re-worded so that it DOES apply to Holy Ardor?

 

[DracoSuave]

Precision says too things:

(a) There are other ways to score criticals outside of 20.

(b) 20 is the only part that allows automatic hits.

An automatic hit MEANS that when you roll a 20 and do NOT beat the defense it's a hit.

It has absolutely nothing to do with critical hits, only that a 20 would normally be a critical hit IF it hit.

The Natural 20 rules explain how natural 20's work.

If you roll a 20 and you hit -> You score a critical hit.

If you roll a 20 and you miss -> You score an automatic hit.

Precision does not say anything about scoring a critical hit but not hitting (which is different than an automatic hit).

One problem is that people are confusing automatic hit (which has a specific definition in the game rules under Natural 20) with the 'score a critical hit means that you hit'.

The thing is, 'an effect stating you score a critical hit means that you skip hit resolution rules' doesn't exist in the rules, isn't implicated by the rules, and, in fact, is argued -against- by the rules. It's making an assumption than an effect that grants you a critical hit must therefore grant you a hit in order to do so, when that assumption isn't even a cogent argument in the face of the evidence provided by those very critical hit rules.

Automatic Hit doesn't refer to the act of rolling a natural 20, it refers to the -consequence- of doing so, which is that doing so means you register a hit regardless of the defense of the target.

And so Precision is saying, only by rolling a natural 20 can you register a hit regardless of the defense of the target. That's why it's not redundant. The automatic hit rule tells you a nat-20 -allows- it to occur, then Precision adds that -only- a nat-20 allows it to occur, but other rolls exist that allow criticals to happen.

That's a -huge- difference. It's like the difference between 'I sell chocolate ice cream' and 'I -only- sell chocolate ice cream.'

To think it doesn't matter is senseless.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Automatic Hit doesn't refer to the act of rolling a natural 20, it refers to the -consequence- of doing so, which is that doing so means you register a hit regardless of the defense of the target.

And so Precision is saying, only by rolling a natural 20 can you register a hit regardless of the defense of the target. That's why it's not redundant. The automatic hit rule tells you a nat-20 -allows- it to occur, then Precision adds that -only- a nat-20 allows it to occur, but other rolls exist that allow criticals to happen.

If you roll a natural 20, it is an automatic hit, which turns misses into hits. In other situations it is not.

Precision merely (a) says that there are some 'specific' situations that trump the general rule that a natural 20 might result in a critical hit. and (b) This does not change the rule about automatic hits.

An automatic hit that turns a miss into a hit does not result in a critical hit. The "rolling doubles" argument put forward about the path feature does not claim an automatic hit. It is not saying that you always hit when you roll doubles, and you crit if you roll high enough to hit 'normally'.

The argument is that, unlike other powers, it doesn't say "can". When you "can" score a critical hit, it means rolling that number isn't enough, you also have to meet the other conditions of scoring a critical hit. The wording IS different. There are other critical hit modifying paragon path features in Divine Power that still use the old wording.

The Natural 20 definition puts forward the normal rules for scoring critical hits. Certain powers modify the definition by adding other numbers. Natural 20 sets forward a condition that result in a critical hit.

If X (roll a natural 20) then
If Y (your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense)
Then Z (you score a critical hit).

In the case of a natural 20, IF X but not Y, you get a normal hit. That's what an automatic hit is. Precision points out the special cases that modify X to include other numbers. Ardent Champion however changes it completely.

If A (you roll doubles)
If Not B (except for double 1's)
Then Z (you score a critical hit).

In both cases the end result in scoring a critical hit.

The other powers and class features like Daggermaster or Weapon Mastery feats do not say that rolling numbers WILL result in scoring a critical hit, only that they may. Ardent Champion is an exception because it's wording is exceptional.

The general rule of scoring a critical hit requires you actually hit to do so. This is a specific case that gives specific conditions under which you can score a critical hit.

 

[DracoSuave]

general rule of scoring a critical hit requires you actually hit to do so. This is a specific case that gives specific conditions under which you can score a critical hit.

If the general rule for scoring a critical hit requires you actually hit, then 'score a critical hit' follows that rule. The word 'can' isn't what allows the rule to work, it's 'score a critical hit'.

That's kinda what rules do. They tell you how to do stuff.

 

[WalterKovacs]

If the general rule for scoring a critical hit requires you actually hit, then 'score a critical hit' follows that rule. The word 'can' isn't what allows the rule to work, it's 'score a critical hit'.

That's kinda what rules do. They tell you how to do stuff.

If you roll a natural 20, and you hit the target's defense THEN you score a crticial hit.

Scoring a critical hit is the end state. When you CAN score a critical hit, you still have to check to see if you scored a critical hit. If you HAVE scored a critical hit, you have already past the point where you check to see if it's a hit.

To use some older edition terms.

General rule: Natural 20 is a potential critical. It is also an automatic hit. The crit is confirmed (scored) if your attack total is enough to hit even if it wasn't an automatic it.

"You may score a critical on a 18-20): As above, plus natural 19 and 18 are also potential criticals. They are confirmed if they hit, but they don't automatically hit like a natural 20 does.

"You score a critical hit" : In this case there is no 'potential' about it. You skip straight to having confirmed (scored) a critical hit.

There are results of scoring a critical hit (max damage, bonus damage, etc). There are also conditions for scoring a critical hit. Nowhere does it say that it is impossible for other conditions to cause critical hits. SOME change the numbers you need to roll BUT still require a hit. SOME turn any hit into a critical. This one just so happens to create a condition where a critical hit can occur that does not utilize a 'check if it hits' mechanism.

The precision 'rule' points out that there are ways to score criticals that supercede the 'only on a natural 20'. That isn't a necessary rule, because it is simple reinforcing exception based design. At the time, there were no exceptions that ignored the "have to hit" requirement as well. The bracketed part of Precision only pointed out that Automatic Hits is a different mechanic than (potential) critical hits, and that something that lets you crit with an 18 doesn't let you automatically hit with an 18. An automatic hit occurs instead of a critical hit. (When it happens in addition to a critical, it doesn't matter, since the critical hit trumps normal hit/automatic hit and deals max damage, etc).

There is a difference between being ALLOWED to score a critical hit, and SCORING a critical hit. If RAI was that it misses if you roll doubles but would otherwise miss, all they had to do was include "can" like they did with EVERY OTHER increased crit range effect they've put out in 4e, and they wouldn't have needed to include the double 1's comment for obvious reasons. Instead, they worded this feature unlike any other of the increased crit range powers.

 

[Artoomis]

..."You score a critical hit" : In this case there is no 'potential' about it. You skip straight to having confirmed (scored) a critical hit.


...There is a difference between being ALLOWED to score a critical hit, and SCORING a critical hit. If RAI was that it misses if you roll doubles but would otherwise miss, all they had to do was include "can" like they did with EVERY OTHER increased crit range effect they've put out in 4e, and they wouldn't have needed to include the double 1's comment for obvious reasons. Instead, they worded this feature unlike any other of the increased crit range powers.

Yep, exactly.

 

[keterys]

If the lack of 'can' is the basis for rules argument, does Steel Vanguard Veteran not need to 'hit' with a 19? Or 20, for that matter.

"You score critical hits on a 19 or 20 with any at-will exploit associated with this feat when using a two-handed heavy blade."

Or Cutthroat Scrutiny?

"During this time, you score a critical hit against the target on a natural roll of 19 or 20."

 

[Artoomis]

If the general rule for scoring a critical hit requires you actually hit, then 'score a critical hit' follows that rule. The word 'can' isn't what allows the rule to work, it's 'score a critical hit'.

That's kinda what rules do. They tell you how to do stuff.

I am so glad you posted this, for this is your key mistake.

The rules say if you do A, you score a critical hit if you also do B.

Another rule comes along and says Whenever you do C, you score a critical hit if you also do D.

That other rule just changed what you need to score a critical hit - it creates an exception to the previous rule by specifying a new rule.

This is what you do not see - or least is that with which do you do not agree.

Actual words from the rules (the parallel is truly amazing):

If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense.

Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

It more than strains credibility to think they'd write up the new rule in a way so parallel to the old rule if they did not intend it to replace the old rule in the way that the plain text reads.

As for Precision, it simply says nothing new. It says that some features/powers might change the number you roll, and that only a 20 will be an automatic hit - as in a automatic hit if the roll is not a critical hit