Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Artoomis]

If the lack of 'can' is the basis for rules argument, does Steel Vanguard Veteran not need to 'hit' with a 19? Or 20, for that matter.

"You score critical hits on a 19 or 20 with any at-will exploit associated with this feat when using a two-handed heavy blade."

Or Cutthroat Scrutiny?

"During this time, you score a critical hit against the target on a natural roll of 19 or 20."

As written, yes they should, but, since they do not present a new mechanic (as Holy Ardor does), it is reasonable to assume that they meant to make this work like all similar powers that simply change the 20 needed for a critical hit to be 19 or 20.

 

[N8Ball]

The problem with that is that without it (precision), the critical hit rules become a sum total of the entire critical hit rules block, which means that triggering a critical hit triggers -all- the rules for it. So, 19-20 -can- replace everything inside that text, creating the situation where a 19 could automaticly hit, because even tho automatic hit is a part of the hit rules, it is -also- a part of the critical hit rules, and an exception to -that- would most -definately- apply.

Therefore there will never be a case where you are granted a critical by Holy Ardor on an attack roll that misses and Precision will therefore never apply because you never met the requirement of "Hit" to even get to Precision.

If on the other hand if you roll high enough on your doubles roll to hit the targets defense then you've already qualified for "Hit" and Precision doesn't matter because you met it's requirements.

So the bottom line is that no matter what you roll using Holy Ardor, Precision doesn't matter.

It seems that these two positions are seriously at odds with one another on the subject of how crits are applied.

If I can paraphrase the two camps:

Draco is saying that precision is needed to prevent mastery feats from getting an "Automatic hit" on a 19. This is internally consistent with his view that the "can" in the mastery feats is superfluous and they would otherwise grant what he calls "automatic crits" (if Precision were not present).

CovertOps is saying that Precision will never apply because any application of a critical hit is first subject to getting a successful attack roll obviating the need for reminders about when you don't crit.

Is that about right?

 

[N8Ball]

If the lack of 'can' is the basis for rules argument, does Steel Vanguard Veteran not need to 'hit' with a 19? Or 20, for that matter.

"You score critical hits on a 19 or 20 with any at-will exploit associated with this feat when using a two-handed heavy blade."

Or Cutthroat Scrutiny?

"During this time, you score a critical hit against the target on a natural roll of 19 or 20."

I'm glad you posted this Keterys because this is exactly what I was asking for a few pages ago (post 304). "What is the fruit of this tree?" Meaning what are the implications of my argument (crit=hit) and what are the implications of a "crit and miss" theory, a path that has yet to be fully explored since defenders of my position have mostly been on the defensive explaining our own position and not attacking the alternative.

As a purist, a true rules monkey, and with due respect to Artoomis, I would have to concede that (if things work the way I believe they do) these powers do indeed crit on a 19 regardless of the defense score. Any other intrepretation would undermine the implications and importance that we have placed on permissive language in the crit ability text and rules.
There can be no wiggle room or mercy in my camp!

These powers you mentioned (written as they are) and the Holy Ardor double 2-crit seem to be the only crazy-power-combo implications of my position.

I would like to address the implications of the other camp's position, but there seems to be some internal debate on the subject of precision and how crits are awarded.

Rather than risk putting further effort into defeating what may end up being a fringe theory, I will wait until their position consolidates so that I have something bigger to shoot at.

 

[keterys]

I assume they also crit on a 20, even if that misses? Or does the 19 crit, but a 20 doesn't because the normal rule stopping it from critting actually applies? (I hope not, but good to be clear)

 

[CovertOps]

If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense.

Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

It more than strains credibility to think they'd write up the new rule in a way so parallel to the old rule if they did not intend it to replace the old rule in the way that the plain text reads.

You are completely ignoring the context of these two rules. One absolutely must be definitive in that it is inside the body of the actual critical hit rules. The other is a power granting a critical hit that must still meet any requirements that were not overridden in the power granting the critical.

Rolling doubles is indeed a new mechanic as you claim, but it specifically replaces the normal requirement of rolling a (natural) 20. The other requirement of a critical is that you hit, but that is not granted by any ability that increases crit range.

 

[Artoomis]

You are completely ignoring the context of these two rules. One absolutely must be definitive in that it is inside the body of the actual critical hit rules. The other is a power granting a critical hit that must still meet any requirements that were not overridden in the power granting the critical.

But, of course, I maintain the other requirements have indeed been overridden.

Rolling doubles is indeed a new mechanic as you claim, but it specifically replaces the normal requirement of rolling a (natural) 20. The other requirement of a critical is that you hit, but that is not granted by any ability that increases crit range.

Well, I disagree and maintain that the new mechanic plus the new rule for it stand on their own as complete. That's the most straightforward way to read it.

 

[DracoSuave]

But, of course, I maintain the other requirements have indeed been overridden.

And I maintain you have not sufficiently shown this to be the case.

I also maintain that your willingness to override requirements without said override being explicitly stated has ramifications well beyond this simple power.

As an example:

Resistance no longer works, because damage must be mandatory.
Spirit Companions no longer works, because damage is still mandatory.
Being hidden and not in the attacked square no longer works.

More importantly, if you suggest that it is not the permissivity or the word 'can' that your argument hinges on, then you then propose the preposterous argument that stuff that crits on a range of 19-20 also hits on a 19, simply because there is no ability that exists to say otherwise.

So, if no ability exists to say Holy Ardor does not hit, then no ability exists to say that ____ Mastery feats do not hit.

The only difference between them is that Holy Ardor is based on an event unique to Oath of Emnity, and that the other is based on a range of discrete numbers.

The only rule that exists regarding discrete numbers and hitting without comparison to defense is natural 20. The rules -do- say, however, in situations that can occur where that exact number is not rolled, the hitting without comparison to defense cannot occur. It only asks that situation -can- occur. It does not refer to specific, discrete numbers.

Therefore, a range of discrete numbers is not necessary to satisfy Precision... only the fact that it can happen when not a natural 20.

Therefore, if you cannot hit with Daggermaster on a normal miss when you'd otherwise crit, you cannot do so with Holy Ardor.

Holy Ardor is a new kind of rule, but it has yet to create an unexpected situation. That's what matters for 'newness.' Otherwise, Oath of Emnity would never crit, because it -too- is a 'new rule.'

Well, I disagree and maintain that the new mechanic plus the new rule for it stand on their own as complete. That's the most straightforward way to read it.

You've not established the new mechanic creates an unaccounted for situation. You've not established a new rule for resolution -even exists-.

Therefore you're creating something out of nothing here.

 

[CovertOps]

But, of course, I maintain the other requirements have indeed been overridden.

Well, I disagree and maintain that the new mechanic plus the new rule for it stand on their own as complete. That's the most straightforward way to read it.

In this case I ask again. Let's assume for a moment that Holy Ardor does NOT create a new mechanic. How would you reword Precision so it applies to Holy Ardor AND any other granted critical hit other than natural 20?

I want to know what you think about Precision doesn't apply.

 

[Otakkun]

Wow ... that's a lot of posts. Anyone even called custserv?

 

[abyssaldeath]

Wow ... that's a lot of posts. Anyone even called custserv?

Yes, someone posted their reply. That was soo many pages ago I don't remember which way they ruled.