D&D 5E Adjudicating "bursting in"

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Guest 6801328

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Yeah, I'm with Hemlock. When you are behind the barrel, with full cover, you are Hidden. You can then attempt to move out from the barrel without being seen...perhaps to sneak up behind the target, or perhaps to pop off a shot with your hand crossbow. Doing so with Advantage requires a Stealth check.

In the case of avoiding a guard patrol (as opposed to combat):
- If the barrel is big enough, or positioned such, that the character will be Hidden the entire time the guard passes, then no roll is needed. (A particularly tough DM might require a Stealth roll to avoid making noise; in this circumstance I would not. Or perhaps roll and only fail on a 1.)
- If, however, the character would have to move around the opposite side of the barrel as the guard passes, or perhaps make a judgment call as to whether he's better off staying put rather than risk making a noise, believing that the guard won't turn his head (which seems to me part of the art of being sneaky)...then a roll is required. Either way it's a great opportunity for the "roll then narrate" approach to RPing.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I don't understand this sentence as an implication of actions. In 5E, you can spend movement before and/or after an action. The PHB calls this out explicitly for attacks. I can't remember if it is explicit for actions other than attacks, but it's certainly never said that movement and actions happen in different phases or anything.

This generally remains true, but there's a bit of a positional caveat: a prerequisite to hiding is that you're not seen by whatever it is you're trying to hide from. If you hide before you move, and you move through a spot where someone can see you, they'll know where you are when you end your turn. If you hide AFTER you move to a spot where no one can see you, and successfully hide, it doesn't matter as much if they saw you when you moved - they'll need to do something to find you (though they might have a good idea where they need to go to do that).

This becomes a pretty irrelevant distinction if you remain unseen for your entire movement, but it can be useful when, say, moving across a hallway or betweeen points of cover or something.

Hemlock said:
I typically play "Hidden" as a way of making your enemy lose track of your location during combat. So if you crouch behind the barrel briefly and Hide, then scoot, a successful Stealth roll means your opponent (watching out of the corner of his eye as he observes the whole battlefield) has lost track of your location and thinks you're still behind the barrel.

The big DM Judgement Call there is if you remain unseen when you move out from behind the barrel. My reading of the (admittedly fabulously vague) stealth rules indicates that generally, yes, the moment you move out from behind that barrel, everyone can see you. Things that would mitigate this might include total obscurement, darkness, invisibility, etc, but in general, someone saw you go behind a barrel, and then they didn't know where you were anymore, but it's not like they forgot you moved behind the barrel, and it's not like they wouldn't see you if you moved from that position out into broad daylight.

I'd probably let someone else make a distraction with a Deception or Sleight of Hand check to have the whole "I move when they're not looking" situation, but I'd want that to be something declared and done in-character, not a presumed part of "being stealthy."
 
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The big DM Judgement Call there is if you remain unseen when you move out from behind the barrel. My reading of the (admittedly fabulously vague) stealth rules indicates that generally, yes, the moment you move out from behind that barrel, everyone can see you. Things that would mitigate this might include total obscurement, darkness, invisibility, etc, but in general, someone saw you go behind a barrel, and then they didn't know where you were anymore, but it's not like they forgot you moved behind the barrel, and it's not like they wouldn't see you if you moved from that position out into broad daylight.

I'd probably let someone else make a distraction with a Deception or Sleight of Hand check to have the whole "I move when they're not looking" situation, but I'd want that to be something declared and done in-character, not a presumed part of "being stealthy."

I agree that broad daylight is a bit of a special case. High Stealth skill to me means you're good at picking when you move so you tend to move at a time when enemies are distracted; but that still wouldn't help unless you end your turn in a place where the enemy still can't see you. If you end your turn in broad daylight on a sandy arena floor, then yeah, Stealth wouldn't help you even at my table.

I wouldn't require a separate Deception or Sleight of Hand check from someone else because, to me, that "move without enemy realizing it" is the entire point of the Stealth roll. If you stay behind the barrel, after all, you're not hidden. Your enemy saw you go there, he can deduce that you're still there.

Learning how your DM adjudicates Stealth rules is important.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I agree that broad daylight is a bit of a special case. High Stealth skill to me means you're good at picking when you move so you tend to move at a time when enemies are distracted; but that still wouldn't help unless you end your turn in a place where the enemy still can't see you. If you end your turn in broad daylight on a sandy arena floor, then yeah, Stealth wouldn't help you even at my table.

I wouldn't require a separate Deception or Sleight of Hand check from someone else because, to me, that "move without enemy realizing it" is the entire point of the Stealth roll. If you stay behind the barrel, after all, you're not hidden. Your enemy saw you go there, he can deduce that you're still there.

Learning how your DM adjudicates Stealth rules is important.

For me, simply moving through a space where the enemy can see you is cause for losing stealth, and the "default state" of most enemies is "Very aware of their surroundings," so you'd have to make some special effort to distract the enemy to get them to look away from a spot they can see. If a stabby little halfling ran behind a barrel, and I was a guard who was semi-competent at my job, I'd watch that barrel like a hawk, even if I didn't see the little bugger anymore, even if I was fighting all that little halfling's buddies.

If you wanted to get nitty-gritty on this, you could implement facing rules...:)

For me, a default state for any character of "If it moves through a space I can see, I can also see it" keeps the whole party engaged in one character's stealth in a tight area (action to Hide means that if the hider wants to get enemies to look away, they need someone ELSE to make a distraction). Stealth is most useful in an ambush (the OP's scenario of "the enemies are in a room on the other side of these closed doors" would be perfect for a Stealth roll since vision is blocked), but becomes difficult in a fight unless you can make cover/provide invisibility/etc.
 

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Guest 6801328

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If a stabby little halfling ran behind a barrel, and I was a guard who was semi-competent at my job, I'd watch that barrel like a hawk, even if I didn't see the little bugger anymore, even if I was fighting all that little halfling's buddies.

Huh. In my world, both real and imagined, "watching like a hawk" and fighting effectively against other enemies are mutually exclusive. If you literally never take your eye off the barrel, I'm going to give you Disadvantage on your attacks, and Advantage on attacks against you.

The scenario I thought you were going to describe was the guard watching the barrel without any other distractions. (Or, for example, if you're willing to take the Disadvantage penalty described above.) This is a tricky one.

If the guard actually approaches the barrel to stab the little bugger, you could argue that he's got to either go one way or the other around it, and that's when the rogue slips away.

But what if he just stays 20' and watches the barrel? The rogue is Hidden, so he can stealth, right? The sidebar on Hiding is specifically about Hiding, about moving from the Seen to the Not-Seen state, not about using Stealth. And our rogue is already Not-Seen.

On the other hand, it seems rather...improbable...that the rogue can actually sneak away from the barrel while the guard is watching it.

What I'd probably rule is that the Rogue gets Disadvantage on his Stealth, and that if he succeeds it means he somehow managed to trick the guard...the old throwing a pebble trick or Jedi Mind Trick or something. Or maybe have him first roll Deception against the guard's Intelligence, and if he succeeds then roll Stealth with Disadvantage. Are those odds "realistic"? Not terribly...but it happens all the freaking time in fiction that we all love, so I'll allow somebody who invests in Stealth to try it, too.

I mean, what's the problem? So he gets a Sneak Attack on the hapless NPC guard and the hero wins against all odds. Isn't that why we play D&D and read terrible Forgotten Realms novels?

I think it comes down to the DM's feelings about stealth and rogues. If it's a trope that you like in your fiction you'll lean toward the more fictional interpretation. If you're sick of the rules-lawyering little buggers you're probably going to be more boringly "realistic".
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Huh. In my world, both real and imagined, "watching like a hawk" and fighting effectively against other enemies are mutually exclusive. If you literally never take your eye off the barrel, I'm going to give you Disadvantage on your attacks, and Advantage on attacks against you.

D&D doesn't exactly have fine-grained attention rules, but it seems reasonable to say that in the time it takes a halfling to scurry 5 ft., a guard can reasonably turn its head to look in that direction (and thus a reasonable assumption that the guard is generally peeking). It's a simplification, but a reasonable one, I feel, especially when you allow actions to manipulate that (ie, "I make a Sleight of Hand check to feint and draw his attention away from the barrel" is AWESOME in my book!)

One interesting point of comparison might be the petrifying gaze of a basilisk or a medusa - "averting your eyes" here is something you need to explicitly declare, and something that means you can't see the basilisk/medusa. The default assumption is "if you see each other, you lock gazes." Even if you're fighting some skeletons a few feet away, you're not considered to be "averting your eyes" from these creatures unless you specify that.

The scenario I thought you were going to describe was the guard watching the barrel without any other distractions. (Or, for example, if you're willing to take the Disadvantage penalty described above.) This is a tricky one.

If the guard actually approaches the barrel to stab the little bugger, you could argue that he's got to either go one way or the other around it, and that's when the rogue slips away.

Or he could just kick the barrel backwards and see what scurries out. IMC, I'd probably rule that this was essentially destroying cover - attack the object, deal damage, and if the barrel breaks, you see what is behind it (and if you have more attacks, you can attack whatever is there). Might not even HAVE TO destroy it (use an attack to "grapple" the barrel and then chuck it away, same ultimate effect).

If the guard was going to treat the barrel as an immovable object, I'd say he'd need to use his action to make a Perception check to see if he can beat your last Stealth roll. If he wins, he can't see you (the barrel's in the way still), but he knows you're back there. If he loses, all he knows is that he last saw you run back there.

But what if he just stays 20' and watches the barrel? The rogue is Hidden, so he can stealth, right? The sidebar on Hiding is specifically about Hiding, about moving from the Seen to the Not-Seen state, not about using Stealth. And our rogue is already Not-Seen.

Yeah, that'd be fine. The rogue would need to keep using the Hide action (and re-rolling Stealth every turn), but he could do that as often as he wanted if he stayed in the same place (and, as a rogue, Cunning Action means that he could do it as a bonus action and use his normal action to ranged attack or even melee attack something next to the barrel - getting advantage on the roll, and thus sneak attack damage to boot, or alternately using his normal action to make the distraction - throwing a pebble using Sleight of Hand - that allows him to move without being seen).

On the other hand, it seems rather...improbable...that the rogue can actually sneak away from the barrel while the guard is watching it.

What I'd probably rule is that the Rogue gets Disadvantage on his Stealth, and that if he succeeds it means he somehow managed to trick the guard...the old throwing a pebble trick or Jedi Mind Trick or something. Or maybe have him first roll Deception against the guard's Intelligence, and if he succeeds then roll Stealth with Disadvantage. Are those odds "realistic"? Not terribly...but it happens all the freaking time in fiction that we all love, so I'll allow somebody who invests in Stealth to try it, too.

I mean, what's the problem? So he gets a Sneak Attack on the hapless NPC guard and the hero wins against all odds. Isn't that why we play D&D and read terrible Forgotten Realms novels?

I think your ruling is fair, though it actually seems a bit harsher than my ruling on the stealth-er! "You can do it but with Disadvantage" is a much bigger failure chance than "You know you can't do it unless you or someone else makes a distraction!"

I think it comes down to the DM's feelings about stealth and rogues. If it's a trope that you like in your fiction you'll lean toward the more fictional interpretation. If you're sick of the rules-lawyering little buggers you're probably going to be more boringly "realistic".

The goal with my ruling is to make the choice of Stealth an interesting decision. Part of what that means is that I want a rogue player paying attention to where cover and concealment are, and using those as an actual sneaking person would - knowing that movement into a place where you can be seen means breaking stealth. So then it becomes a question of "Okay, how can I not be seen in this open space?" and that becomes an interesting use of tactics and strategy that depend on the environment and party synergy to pull off.

My ruling only comes up if you're moving between points of cover (or maybe out from behind cover to stab a chump), and in that case, it means you're seen as you move between them unless you somehow distract the enemy. This lets you do the Last of Us thing of hucking a bottle across the room to get their attention off of you (Sleight of Hand vs. Perception) if you're a rogue, or gets your party involved (Deception vs. Insight to get the enemy's attention for a few moments), or means spending resources on darkness or invisibility and all of those sound like more interesting decision points to me than "you just do it" is. "You might do it with Disadvantage" doesn't encourage interacting with the world's particulars much, either.

Which isn't to say it's bad or unfair, it just doesn't make the particular details of the scene quite as relevant, and I like it when a player/party has to be creative in the moment! :)
 


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Guest 6801328

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Yeah, that'd be fine. The rogue would need to keep using the Hide action (and re-rolling Stealth every turn),

Not sure I agree with you on that detail. If he's staying behind the barrel, and he's Hidden, then he doesn't have to do anything to remain Hidden. Does something in RAW contradict that?

But I do completely agree about "Interesting Decisions".
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Not sure I agree with you on that detail. If he's staying behind the barrel, and he's Hidden, then he doesn't have to do anything to remain Hidden. Does something in RAW contradict that?

But I do completely agree about "Interesting Decisions".

Because RAW/RAI on stealth is confusing, it can be hard to lock down when hiding ends.

The RAW says: "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding..."

I interpret "stop hiding" as "You don't take the Hide action on your turn." Literally, you have stopped taking the Hide action, so whatever else you do instead - that's the action you're now taking. Ready? Dodge? Whatever? You're not taking the Hide action, so you've stopped hiding.

It's not unreasonable to interpret it as "when you can be seen" (which wouldn't happen when you don't move from your hiding spot). That potentially lets a PC "stock" actions (I hide + dodge; I hide + ready; I hide + attack), which makes stealth a bit better than other things, but not game-breakingly so, I think.

The thing I try to avoid with the re-roll is to stop one big or small result from applying for a long period of time (your average stealth matters more than if you got lucky or could inflate one roll). It also helps make it clear when one instance of "hiding" ends (I don't care if it's the same 50-ft. long low wall, you need to make ANOTHER check when you move to the other end of it - you don't stick to it like this is Gears of War, buddy!), and makes sure that a player can't just make a good Hide check and sit out the action - they need to be actively involved in maintaining that hide. It also handily models how hard it is to "stay quiet" while shifting your weight and breathing and manipulating items and such - stealth is an active, constant process, not a one-off.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
The thing I try to avoid with the re-roll is to stop one big or small result from applying for a long period of time (your average stealth matters more than if you got lucky or could inflate one roll). It also helps make it clear when one instance of "hiding" ends (I don't care if it's the same 50-ft. long low wall, you need to make ANOTHER check when you move to the other end of it - you don't stick to it like this is Gears of War, buddy!), and makes sure that a player can't just make a good Hide check and sit out the action - they need to be actively involved in maintaining that hide. It also handily models how hard it is to "stay quiet" while shifting your weight and breathing and manipulating items and such - stealth is an active, constant process, not a one-off.
While all of this might be fine for in-combat hiding (which is generally silly to attempt, and I don't know why they keep throwing in abilities that seem to be trying to make it a thing), it basically makes out of combat stealth impossible, since one failed check blows stealth, you may as well be asking your stealther to take 1 while the perceiver takes 20.
 

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