Adjudicating Illusion magic

[Nareau]

I've got a rules-savvy player who's chosen to start playing a 5th level illusionist in my Pathfinder game. He recently asked me a few questions, and I thought I'd turn to the peanut gallery to help with the answers. How would you rule on these?

1)Silent/Minor/Major image spells only allow 1 creature, object, or force. This limit precludes some awesome stuff. Ideas around it:

a. Ignore the limit, and instead keep the limit to the area-of-effect.

b. Allow similar creatures/objects/force. That is, you can create 10 dragons, but not 1 dragon and one cloud of dust.

c. Treat like “summon monster” spells, where you can either add additional stuff to the illusion (sound, temperature, etc.), OR you can have multiple creatures. Therefore a major image could either have temperature, OR could create multiple creatures/effects with sound but no temperature.

d. Allow (possibly with a feat) threaded illusions: if I can silent image to create a cloud, next round instead of concentrating, I can cast minor image to make a bird fly out of the cloud, and that’ll count as my concentration for the first one. Word it something like this: “A character who has cast a figment spell with a duration: concentration may cast another figment spell and treat this standard action both as spellcasting and as concentrating on all current figment spells with duration: concentration. The character may, through a single concentration action, maintain multiple figment spells.

e. Create additional spells with names like “Complex major image,” similar to “mass” spells.

2) The Cloud defense: if I cast an illusion, I have proof that it’s illusory, right? So it’s translucent to me? This means that a silent image of a custom-shaped cloud is an excellent defense: other people are likely to believe it’s a real cloud and therefore can’t see through it, but I can, giving me total concealment vs. them but allowing me clear line of sight to them.

3) Fake Heat Metal/Fake Serpent Weapon: is there anything to prevent me from messing with people’s equipment? Strikes me as fun.

4) Interrupted concentration: when I stop concentrating on an illusion, does it continue to act in the way I just commanded it to, or does it freeze entirely? If the spell’s duration is something like concentration+3 rounds, and I stop concentrating on it, I’m sure the spell’s expiration clock begins; but can I resume concentrating on it before it expires to exercise a last bit of control over it?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've played a 3E illusionist for years and love it.

1) Create a new spell. He's asking to do too much with what was an intentionally rebalanced group of (incredibly powerful) spells.

2) One-way concealment is reasonable (and classic).

3) What prevents you is the automatic interaction the subject gets with the illusions. You can do it, but successful illusionists don't create illusions that their subjects will want to or be able to easily interact with. Creating an illusion spell that the subject will automatically interacts with (and thus could succeed on a Will save for) is certainly possible; it's just dumb.

4) I'd say that interrupted concentration ends the period of concentration for the spell, period. Otherwise there's not much point in Concentration checks and the like.

 

[Dingo333]

So, question 1: I would go with a and/or b, but you would have too keep the range as a static 30ft. if you made it close, there is a metamagic feat to increase the range, and you do not want someone going to sit on a hill and "summon" a dragon swarm into the town 1160ft away. As it is, with this way, the player can use enlarge spell to cover a battlefield, or normal to cover a room

Question 2: The player is thinking of the cloud as a 1 way mirror. This is a bad way to do it. Explain that is is more like a frosted glass from his view. He can see the cloud, its shape, an idea of its depth, but it is not a clear window.

effectivly, he would have total concealment, others have partial

Question 3: He could be the creator of a new spell. One that makes the owner of targeted weapon think ____ happened to it. Would probably be level 2, close, and the duration would be normal for spell replicatd or 1 round/2 level

Question 4: It would continue its last ordered action. Also, you would not be able to regain control if it was broken. The illusion is now fully in its victims minds, where as, while he was concentrating, it was partially in his.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Question 4: It would continue its last ordered action. Also, you would not be able to regain control if it was broken. The illusion is now fully in its victims minds, where as, while he was concentrating, it was partially in his.

That's only true if we're talking about patterns or phantasms.

Magic - Pathfinder_OGC

 

[paradox42]

(1) Yeah, new spell here. Actually some of the old Mongoose books (for 3.0) had cool ideas for creating fake summons, which is what the player seems to be focusing on here; I've forgotten the name but it might have been The Complete Illusionist. They had one for each of the schools, basically, but you might check that out and see if it looks acceptable to you the GM. If so, try it- and don't forget to have villains use it too.

(2) Totally reasonable. In fact, the way I usually see this done is with a wall in a dungeon, but cloud is useful for outdoors.

(3) Holder of the weapon or wearer of the armor would get a Will save immediately due to interaction, but in theory it could work. That's why Illusion is actually one of the most powerful schools despite not producing real effects! Whizbang is correct, though, about this usually being a Bad Idea. Illusions are most effective when you give people no reason to disbelieve them.

(4) The rules are somewhat unclear, but I'd agree with Whizbang again; best way is to just start the clock inexorably. That causes the least potential trouble down the line. Maybe make a feat that lets you "recapture" concentration on a spell, but that's house rules obviously.

 

[Pielorinho]

Rules-savvy player, checking in .

I'm happy to have to use more spells to accomplish my ideas, and for them to be higher level. But how I'd like to build the character is toward complete repainting of the battlefield: trolls fighting us in a dungeon would suddenly see themselves on a windswept mountaintop surrounded by angry fire elementals and steep drops. That's the extreme end of what I'm imagining: I get to "paint" the battlefield, and I can add new monsters or hazards to it with figments, and I can use glamers to change what we PCs look like.

Short-term, I'd like to be able to do some, but not all, of that. I'd love to be able to make a forest field erupt with a river of magma down its center, with smoking bushes on either side; and if during the next round a half-dozen tiny fiery sprites could spring from that magma to attack my enemies, how much fun is that? But I can't figure out how to do it under strict readings of the rules.

Some other scenes I'd love to pull off:
-Cast a spell, and have mirror-images spring away from me (I'd take a move action to move off also); each of these mirror-images would be able to take actions that I could take, although of course all their effects would be illusory.
-Spring into the air on a column of smoke (the springing me is illusory, the real me is hidden in the illusory smoke), casting out shadowy tentacles that attach to enemies and cause intense but non-damaging cold as they begin to swell with pulsing red light that peristalses its way to the cackling illusory me atop the column of smoke.
-Create a half-dozen illusory monsters amongst enemy troops--then, once they realize the monsters are illusory, summon 1d3 identical-but-real monsters among the troops, and have the illusions continue to attack, confusing the snot out of the enemy.

In other words, I'd love to be able to use illusions to provide lots of fake targets, to channel enemies onto suboptimal terrain, to provoke enemies into lowering their guard, and to trick enemies into wasting actions.

Do folks have thoughts on how I can accomplish these goals? Rules-legal ways are best, of course, but I'm also happy to spend some feats and/or research new spells in order to accomplish the goals.

Nareau, as I mentioned before, I do think the cloud-as-cover approach is appropriate: ruling a cloud as an object by silent-image standards seems reasonable. Compare it to the first-level vanish (invisibility for 1 round/level): it does allow attacks, but it also allows saving throws to disbelieve, and even someone who doesn't disbelieve it can attack fine if they get within 5' of me. It further either separates me from my allies or else it inconveniences them. Finally, it has a significantly shorter duration, currently limited to 3 rounds post-concentration (due to my school specialization).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

-Cast a spell, and have mirror-images spring away from me (I'd take a move action to move off also); each of these mirror-images would be able to take actions that I could take, although of course all their effects would be illusory.

You want Project Image or a variant.

 

[Pielorinho]

Project image is wayyyy more powerful than what I'm looking at for that; rather, I think of it as a variant of mirror image, with less dice-based defensive power and more confuse-the-enemy potential.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Add a level or two to Mirror Image, then, to start with.

 

[Pielorinho]

Why add a level or two--do you think that creating features that move independently is more powerful than mirror image? Especially if it requires concentration (as seems likely, given similar spells), it seems at best as powerful as mirror image.